Digital Production Buzz
June 11, 2015
[Transcripts provided by Take 1 Transcription]
(Click here to listen to this show.)
Larry Jordan & Mike Horton
Oliver Hollis-Leick, Co-Founder, The Mocap Vaults
Larry O’Connor, President & Founder, Other World Computing
Tim Smith, Senior Film and Television Advisor, Canon USA, Inc.
Larry Jordan: Hi. I’ve got a fascinating show for you tonight. We’re going to start with Oliver Hollis-Leick. He is the founder of The Mocap Vault. His mission in life is to teach actors and filmmakers how to do mocap and tonight he shares the secrets of mocap with us.
Larry Jordan: Then Larry O’Connor, the CEO of OWC, stops by to explain that not all cables are created equal. In fact, the construction and components of any cable make a big difference in performance and reliability. Tonight, Larry shares the secrets of cables.
Larry Jordan: And then finally, Tim Smith is the Senior Advisor for Film and Television for Canon. He’s the perfect person to talk about cameras with but, more importantly, he’s the perfect person to talk about lenses and tonight we’re going to discuss how to pick the right lens for your camera.
Larry Jordan: They’re all next on The Buzz.
Announcer: Tonight’s Digital Production Buzz is brought to you by Other World Computing at macsales.com.
Larry Jordan: Since the dawn of digital film making …
Larry Jordan: …one show serves a worldwide network of media professionals …
Larry Jordan: …uniting industry experts …
Larry Jordan: …film makers …
Voiceover: Post production.
Larry Jordan: …and content creators around the planet.
Larry Jordan: From the media capital of the world in Los Angeles, California, The Digital Production Buzz goes live now.
Larry Jordan: And welcome to The Digital Production Buzz, the world’s longest running podcast for creative content producers covering media production, post production, marketing and distribution around the world. My name is Larry Jordan and joining us, the casually dressed for the summer co-host, Mr. Mike Horton.
Mike Horton: Does this bother you?
Larry Jordan: You know, I think that NASA is just way cool. It’s a very cool look.
Mike Horton: Put all your money into NASA. Ok.
Larry Jordan: I didn’t realize we could invest in NASA.
Mike Horton: Well, we could, couldn’t we? Well, we do. Taxpayer money.
Larry Jordan: That’s very true. Thinking of money and investment, the big news this week was from Apple with the WWDC, their worldwide developer conference.
Mike Horton: Did you actually watch that entire thing?
Larry Jordan: I did not watch it this time. I normally do. But it was impressive, it ran two and a half hours. It just went on for …
Mike Horton: I know and the one that everybody wanted to hear was all about Apple Music and, of course, that comes in the last 15 minutes of the two and a half hours.
Larry Jordan: But they also announced the new version of IOS, IOS9, they announced El Capitan.
Mike Horton: And the new operating system and I’m sure the first question you got from all of your listeners and viewers was, “Does Final Cut Pro X work with the new operating system?” Larry, do you have that answer yet? It hasn’t shipped.
Larry Jordan: Not yet. It hasn’t shipped and I did get that email, I got it five minutes after the conference ended. A guy very worried said, “Is Final Cut X going to work with the new version?”
Mike Horton: Everybody thinks you work for Apple, that you have the inside ear for everything that they’re doing, even in the secret labs. Have you? Have you, Larry?
Larry Jordan: No, no. I’ve managed to …
Mike Horton: Have you been in the secret lab?
Larry Jordan: I’ve managed to pick a business model where Apple barely talks to me, much less works and hires me.
Mike Horton: I think they talk to … anybody.
Larry Jordan: Well, it’s going to be an exciting time. It’s going to be a cool summer. Alex4D is already deconstructing the operating system.
Mike Horton: Yes, I think he’s already posted a couple of things where he’s getting into the code and all that, but will Final Cut Pro X work with the new operating system? Of course it’ll work!
Larry Jordan: It just hasn’t shipped yet.
Mike Horton: It just hasn’t shipped yet.
Larry Jordan: By the way, Mike and I will be back with Oliver Hollis-Leick right after this.
Larry Jordan: Our friends at Other World Computing are looking for a creative, fan-made commercial, so they’re hosting a video contest with an incredible grand prize – a dream video workstation. This prize package includes a 2013 Apple Mac Pro and a 4K display, an Avid Artist’s transport console and color control surface, a 16 terabyte OWC Thunderbay 4, a GoPro Hero and more.
Larry Jordan: The whole package is worth over $12,000. Whether you’re a seasoned pro shooting with high end gear or a newcomer shooting with your iPhone, now you can show off your video-making talent in a 30 to 60 second commercial about OWC. The deadline for entries is June 30th, so start shooting. Visit macsales.com/video-contest for all the details. That’s macsales.com. Don’t miss out.
Larry Jordan: Oliver Hollis-Leick is a trained actor who has specialized in motion capture for the last 13 years. He’s played James Bond, Iron Man, Spiderman, Captain Scarlet and hundreds of other characters. He co-founded The Mocap Vaults to train a new generation of motion capture performers and filmmakers. Hello, Oliver, welcome.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Hello, good evening.
Larry Jordan: I should mention, before we get started, that we are talking with you live in the UK at something like two o’clock in the morning and we’ll find out the reason why you’re still awake at two o’clock in the morning in just a couple of minutes. But first, Oliver, how would you define mocap?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Motion capture is essentially the process of recording human movement in three dimensions, in simple form.
Larry Jordan: Well, how is it done?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: There are a variety of methods you can use, but the most common way is to use a studio full of these optical cameras that focus down into a stage, which is known as the volume, and that’s where the actor will perform and the actor wears all these different reflective markers and light projected from the camera bounces off the reflective markers into the cameras again and is then put together by the system to create a 3D model.
Larry Jordan: Which makes me realize that we’re not really interested in seeing what the actor looks like. What we’re doing is capturing the movements of the actor, so the fact that it looks garish is not important because it’s capturing the markers that are important. True statement?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Exactly, yes, absolutely.
Larry Jordan: So this gets me to the first really hard question – what is it that makes mocap so challenging for a performer? Nobody cares what you look like, nobody sees your face and you’re sitting in front of a green screen. What makes it hard?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: The hardest thing about motion capture is the rawness of it. On a movie set, you’ve got costume, props, other actors around you, you know exactly where the camera is and you know what kind of size of shot it is and you can just perform. In motion capture, you have a bare warehouse-like set with no props, no costumes – you’re wearing a Lycra suit, no matter what kind of character you’re playing – sometimes you have no other actors in the room and you don’t necessarily even know where the camera is.
Larry Jordan: Wait a minute. This is a little bit different than …
Mike Horton: This is what every actor loves.
Larry Jordan: Well, I was just thinking, Andy Serkis did Gollum for ‘Lord of the Rings’ and they were shooting him on location. You’re saying mocap is not an on location event?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It is actually an on location event, but it’s rarely done that way because of the complications that are introduced doing that. Because motion capture works on reflective light, any kind of interference from studio lights or daylight can pose quite a problem, not to mention the fact that you then have to visually remove that performer from the shot using … effects anyway.
Larry Jordan: So aside from the fact that it’s way too late at night and clearly no sane person should be up at this hour, what is it that got you interested in mocap in the first place? How do you express yourself as an actor?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Like many people, mocap came across me rather than me coming across it. A friend of mine had already been doing it for a couple of years and he said they were looking for an extra guy and would I be interested in auditioning, and that’s how I discovered it. I got my first role in a video game 13 years ago and it was such an enjoyable experience that I looked into it more and more and found myself doing it more and more.
Larry Jordan: Ok, wait a minute, you’re wearing a Lycra suit, you’re covered with white dots, you’re in a big warehouse under bizarre lights and it’s an enjoyable experience? What’s wrong with this picture?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Oh yes. Well, I’m just that kind of guy, I guess.
Mike Horton: Glutton for punishment. When you were doing the video game, and I know you’ve done a lot of movies, but when you are doing video games, were you actually vocalizing? Are you actually saying lines and words while you’re doing the mocap?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It depends, actually. Certainly in the earlier days, they would have an A list celebrity record the lines in advance and then when I turned up on set I’d actually be acting along to the lines, because obviously nobody cares about me.
Mike Horton: What about the video game? Were you an actual character in the video game or were you doubling for another actor?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Oh yes. Well, I’d be doubling for other actors if that was the case, but in the last five or six years I’ve had my head scanned several times, they’ve created a digital version of me and actually I was walking through the London Underground a few years ago and saw a huge poster for a new alien game with my head on it, and I didn’t even know that they’d done this. I just suddenly was looking at myself on this poster.
Mike Horton: Then, of course, you took a selfie.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Of course I did, yes.
Larry Jordan: What was it that got you interested in this in the first place? I know you said that mocap found you, but what it is that caught your fancy?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Motion capture is probably the purest form of acting you can get, because it’s based entirely on imagination. It’s like going back to the days of childhood, when you just said, “Today I’m going to be this creature or this character and I’m in this place. Today I’m on a starship,” or, “Today I’m in the jungle,” and you can just create that there and then.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: The special thing about it is I could say, “Well, what if this is happening? And maybe the dinosaur comes in from this direction or there’s this spaceship floating at this point.” The animators can then go away and take that creative input and introduce it into the project. You couldn’t do that on a film set.
Mike Horton: Do you sometimes play creatures or is it pretty much all people?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: I played Dobby in ‘Harry Potter,’ I’ve played six legged creatures – I did some of those for ‘John Carter on Mars’ – I’ve played dragons, ogres, werewolves.
Mike Horton: So obviously you have to be somewhat athletic and be able to contort your body into these kinds of figures?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It’s incredibly tiring work, actually. If you imagine being down in a squat position, like Andy Serkis was for Gollum, and doing that day after day after day after day. It does get to you.
Mike Horton: Yes. Well, I can see that you’re in good shape, and you’d better be in good shape to do what you do.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: I won’t be in the morning, that’s for sure.
Larry Jordan: What type of actors are good at mocap? And on the flip side, what I’m going to ask you next is if you’re a filmmaker casting an actor for mocap, what do you look for?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: I’m really glad you asked that question because at the moment there’s definitely a short sightedness in the industry. Actors are generally cast on their voice for games and for films, even, with motion capture and a lot of the time physicality is never even present during the audition – it’s based on voice, the old traditional way of casting video game actors. But then you get that person in the studio and you realize they have no fluidity, no movement, they can’t adapt their body.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: In fact, when they’re put in a Lycra suit and they’ve got a bunch of nerdy guys looking at them, they can get pretty tense, so you then have to combat that. So it’s really important to look for somebody who’s versatile, who is happy to improvise and somebody who will commit themselves to the role 100 percent.
Larry Jordan: So how should a filmmaker run a casting session for a mocap actor?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: I would say first of all if you’re going to have them playing a character or someone who doesn’t look like them, don’t get them coming in wearing clothes like this, because that hides the motion, especially if it’s long flowing dresses or whatever. You want to see the outline of the person, the shape of them. You’re looking for whether there’s tension in their body or whether they can relax in a strange environment. Get them to try different things, see how versatile they are and how flexible they can be.
Mike Horton: Would dancers be good at mocap?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It depends. Dancers are good with their bodies but not necessarily always trained actors. But if they’re playing creatures, definitely, yes. They understand their own movement in a way that many people don’t.
Mike Horton: Do you have a dance background yourself?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: I don’t, but I did martial arts and gymnastics, which gave me body coordination from that, and I did go to drama school and we did tap dancing and ballet and all that kind of stuff.
Larry Jordan: I’m having a hard time equating tap dance and ballet with Dobby. Somehow the pictures don’t work the same way. Where’s the market? If you’ve got mocap skills, who’s hiring? What type of clients are looking for you?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It’s such a broad range now and it’s growing more and more all the time. At the moment, I work on video games, it’s a huge part of my work, but the games could be anything. I’ve done mobile games and I’ve also done AAA games, but movies as well like ‘Iron Man’ and ‘Total Recall.’ Those are all done by VFX houses that use motion capture as a part of their pipeline and they would take the data and animate on top of it until they get it the way they want it to look.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: But there’s something really interesting happening now in entertainment and that is, of course, virtual reality and it makes me think of perhaps how the public responded to television 80 years ago – someone telling them they had to get this new device in their house that would have images beamed into it and maybe how reluctant they might have been to that. We’re being asked to take these headsets … It’s an extraordinary experience. The first time I put it on, I didn’t want to take it off.
Larry Jordan: Oh, you didn’t want to take the VR headset off, it was that immersive?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It’s so engrossing, it’s so immersive. It’s quite remarkable.
Mike Horton: It really hasn’t hit the world as much as, we’re talking about it all the time, we’re seeing it but the Oculus Rift is not really shipped yet and a lot of us have experienced it but we’re not seeing a lot of it. Have you yourself done games in the VR world yet?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: I haven’t, but a colleague of mine did recently. A game we’d already worked on together decided they wanted to do a VR experience and so he had to do that. But, of course, you’re not acting to a camera any more, you’re acting to a person who will be watching you in the future.
Mike Horton: Yes, it’s so new and you’re on the ground floor, so that’s exciting.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Yes.
Larry Jordan: Walk me through a typical day. You’ve been booked for a gig, it’s your first day on set doing mocap. You walk in the door, what’s happening next? Go into some detail. What would we see if we were there?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: First thing, I have to be put into the Lycra suit and have to have all of these markers applied to my body in the right places. Then they do a calibration, where they connect those dots up into a skeleton in the system, a skeleton that will stick with me for the rest of the day. Then I will usually be presented with a script for the first time in the project, I won’t have seen it before that usually, and I have to learn the lines very quickly and then we start doing tentative …
Larry Jordan: We lost the last sentence. Try that one more time. You’re looking at the script, you had to learn it quickly, and then give us the rest of it.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Then we’ll do a brief rehearsal and then we’ll just start hitting it shot after shot, because in mocap there’s no relight, there’s no moving the camera. It’s ever present so you just keep going.
Larry Jordan: Is there a director or someone telling you what to do? Or are they just saying, “Do whatever you want”?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It’s a funny thing, because in film there’s a very established infrastructure of how a set works, but in games you often get an animator who’s got a collection of moves they need for their game turn up and they’ve never worked with an actor before, and so they’re saying, “Can you lift your left arm a bit higher? Can you tilt your head?” rather than saying, “Ok, so you’re in a dark environment and there’s this werewolf hiding and he’s going to jump on you,” which is the way an actor works, to be stimulated emotively.
Larry Jordan: So they’re giving you body movements rather than environments.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Often, yes.
Larry Jordan: How would you like to be directed in an ideal world?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: The best way is to give me an idea of where I am, what I’m doing, who’s with me, where I just came from, what my objective is. Those start a thought process that stimulates action.
Larry Jordan: Now it’s time to ask you why you’re up at two o’clock in the morning in London talking to us live, as opposed to getting some rest. What’s happening here?
Mike Horton: It took him four hours to get out of the Lycra suit.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Exactly, yes. They just peel it off me at the end of the day.
Mike Horton: Then it’s a long shower.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Well, in the morning, in a few hours, I’m flying to Los Angeles and this weekend we’re holding a huge event at a professional mocap stage there called Just Cause and we’re getting the greatest minds in motion capture together with new and aspiring actors, animators, technicians and directors to get everybody talking about how we can create better performances using motion capture.
Larry Jordan: Can anybody attend or is this an invitation only event?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Yes, absolutely. If you go to our website, there’s a variety of different places you can come, but the observer position on the Sunday means that somebody who’s just looking to get more of an idea about how the technology works and how they can get involved, they can come along and see exactly how it works.
Larry Jordan: Well, the other thing that you do is you train actors to do motion capture work. How do you tell somebody to wear white dots and move around a stage?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: There’s actually a revolution happening in motion capture, thanks to companies like iPi Soft and the software that they’re making now. I can take a Kinect camera from an Xbox and I can put it on a tripod in a room with a bunch of actors and none of them need to put any suits on, no markers, they can just stand in front of this camera and record their performance and they can see it on screen within minutes on a character.
Mike Horton: Yes, is it going to be maybe in another year or so when we won’t have to wear the Lycra suits and all the dots and stuff, everything’s done inside camera and software?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Well, it’s possible now. The only problem is that optical, which is where you wear the markers, is just much more accurate. But, as technology advances, there’s nothing to stop a markerless motion capture system from taking over.
Mike Horton: Ok, but if actors didn’t have to wear those Lycra suits, I think they’d feel a lot more comfortable.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Oh, I think that takes the fun out of it.
Mike Horton: It kind of snugs the man parts.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It certainly does, yes. It’s very cupping.
Mike Horton: Yes it is.
Larry Jordan: What I’m curious about is, when you’re training actors, is it in movement? Is it in expressing emotions? Is it more like a dance class or is it more like a discover who you are class? How do you structure the instruction?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It’s such a pleasurable class to teach because what my job is in that room is to take people back to the most kind of basic form of imaginative work, start saying to people, “Ok, forget everything that’s around you and go into your own world. Now you’re a dragon, you’ve got these wings,” or, “You’re a gorilla and you’ve got to move in a more primitive way and you’re in a jungle and it’s raining and you’re responding to that,” and suddenly you see people get lost in these worlds and they love it, they really love it.
Mike Horton: Yes, I think you really have to appreciate the actors who do this, like the Andy Serkises. It’s really extraordinary, what they do.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Yes, when you see what people have to work with and what they do with it, it’s quite remarkable, what those people do.
Mike Horton: Remember the old Bob Zemeckis movie, ‘Polar Express,’ where he’s taken Tom Hanks, for instance, it’s the first time he’d ever gotten into those Lycra suits with the dots and stuff and he has to act. It was still wonderful stuff. It’s not necessarily a great movie, but the performances were terrific.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Absolutely, and he played many of the parts.
Mike Horton: Yes.
Larry Jordan: It’s an exercise in imagination and if you’ve got an active imagination and can express that in movement, then you’re more than halfway there in being successful at mocap.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Absolutely. A bold imagination and a kind of freeness of body is a great start.
Mike Horton: Sounds like a really fun class.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It is fun.
Larry Jordan: For people who want to go to this event that you’re working on this weekend, what website can they go to?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Themocapvaults.com and if they click on the training side of things, they go in there and you’ll see The Mocap Vaults summit right there and you just click and book.
Larry Jordan: For people who can’t make the event, do you have training that’s available to them online?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Not yet, but that is something we’re working on. I’m actually creating a video at the moment, a film, which is called ‘Acting for Video Games’ and it explains the whole process and how to go about it.
Larry Jordan: That would be very cool.
Mike Horton: Back when I was an actor, I used to do a lot of video game voiceover work and, of course, we didn’t have mocap or anything like that, we’d just go in and do the voices. But now they’re hiring actors not only for their voices, but they’re bringing them into the studios and doing the mocap thing, and a lot of those guys – these are A list actors who are doing this kind of stuff and once they do it, they don’t want to do it again. It’s a lot of work.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Yes, maybe that’s true.
Mike Horton: It’s really, really hard work.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: It is, yes, there’s no doubt about that.
Larry Jordan: For people who want to keep track of you, do you have a website separate and distinct from the event and, if so, what website should people go to?
Oliver Hollis-Leick: My website is oliverhollis.com, but we also have a Facebook page for The Mocap Vaults and I have my … under my name.
Larry Jordan: The main website is themocapvaults.com and Oliver Hollis-Leick is the co-founder of The Mocap Vaults. Oliver, this has been fun. Thanks for joining us today.
Mike Horton: Yes, it’s been a lot of fun. Thanks.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Yes, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you very much.
Mike Horton: Welcome to LA in a week.
Larry Jordan: Bye bye.
Mike Horton: Or today.
Oliver Hollis-Leick: Thanks, man. See you. Bye.
Larry Jordan: I’ve got a ton of brand new training videos showcasing all the new features in Final Cut Pro 10.2, and they’re all available today. In fact, we’ve updated our entire Final Cut training for this release. We added more than 70 new movies covering every major and minor new feature in the software.
Larry Jordan: Then I figured, as long as I was recording, I’d add new techniques and new ways of working that I’ve discovered and written about in my newsletter over the years. We’ve updated our workflow in editing training with 31 new movies and effects with 41 new movies. This makes our Final Cut training the most comprehensive, most up to date and most affordable way to learn everything about this amazing software. It’s quick, it’s easy and it’s complete.
Larry Jordan: I’m proud of all of my training and especially proud of this one. Get your copy today in our store at larryjordan.com or, even better, become a member of our video training library and get access to all of our training for one low monthly price. Both are incredible value. Thanks.
Larry Jordan: Larry O’Connor founded Other World Computing, which is also called OWC, in 1988. Their website is macsales.com. They’ve been supporting all things Mac for more than 25 years and were recently recognized as one of the fastest growing privately held companies in the Chicago area. They are also a current sponsor of The Buzz, for which we’re grateful. Hello, Larry, welcome back.
Larry O’Connor: Hey, Larry, thanks for having me.
Larry Jordan: It’s always a delight. Now, I know that Mike is perhaps not so interested in this, but some people covet jewelry or fine wine. Me, I love cables, lots and lots of audio cables and video cables.
Mike Horton: Are you kidding? We’re talking to Larry about cables?
Larry Jordan: Video cables and audio cables. It’s going to be great. But you tell me that …
Mike Horton: Larry came on this show to talk about cables? Larry, did you come on this show to talk about cables?
Larry O’Connor: Yes, I’m taking a moment from my … to talk about cables, although I’m sure we can slip other stuff in there, but …
Larry Jordan: Unbelievable. Michael, you are totally losing the significance of this …
Mike Horton: I’m looking at the paragraph. Yes, we’re talking to Larry about cables today. Ok, Larry, go ahead.
Larry Jordan: Larry, Michael has no respect, no respect for the quality work that people need to know about to have cables function properly, and now you’re telling me that cables are not created equal?
Larry O’Connor: Indeed. Cables are tough thing to even, you know, you certainly can’t get excited talking about cables, so if you don’t have a good cable in your workflow, cable can be the most troublesome part of your set-up when everything else seems to be working right or should be working right. I’m sure you’ve already experienced multiple times the weakest link in the chain, it brings the whole chain down and it’s really important to have cables that, quite frankly, don’t become that weak link.
Larry Jordan: Well, now, let’s just talk about that for a second, because a cable’s just got wires in it and a connector. What makes poor quality?
Larry O’Connor: Well, there’s different grades of copper and different amounts of copper, different amounts of the conductor in general, whether it be copper or silver. If we look at Thunderbolt cables just as one example, they all go through the same certification, you can’t have a … Thunderbolt cable without that part being certified.
Larry O’Connor: However, you do have a lot of free will and choice to maybe … what kind of materials you use, how the strain release is designed and the general flexibility and that comes back to the quality of the copper that’s inside. … and you can get cables that feel really good and you think, “Wow, this cable’s super thick and heavy duty and everything else, it must be a great cable,” but if you’re compensating for a lower grade material that’s inside or it’s just got a super thick housing, touch and feel does not a good cable make.
Larry O’Connor: On a Thunderbolt cable, certainly in the case of the cable we put out there, the weakest link that we’ve seen in some of the other options that are out there are in the strain release, especially if you have a more rigid cable and then if you don’t have a good strain release for multiple plug-in and plug-out, you start to see.. most often on all the strain releases … The strain release is typically your weak leak in the …
Larry O’Connor: One person I talked to earlier said, “Well, how do I know if this Thunderbolt cable is a bad Thunderbolt cable?” I said, “Well, if it has their logo on it, you’re golden.” That’s an easy way to tell. If you cut through our cable, you’ll notice it’s got good flexibility so it doesn’t put a lot of stress on that connection point where the cable goes into the connector, and the strain release is at a good size and of a good material that significantly reduces even the probability of that kind of weak point.
Larry O’Connor: In a very rigid cable, you’re always putting pressure on that connection point and with a bad strain release, you can end up with a breakage there or not enough of a strain release, unbeknownst to you, you can actually be tugging on the actual conductors inside that cable and cause a break or a stretch or a reduction in the proper connection, undetectable to the eye.
Mike Horton: How would you even quality control that? You’re manufacturing thousands of these things.
Larry O’Connor: It’s a process and as far as the QC side goes, it’s very easy to … the materials … The moment …cables into production. Number two, we do a significant number of, I’d guess you’d say random checks in terms of the cable throughout to make sure nothing went wrong …, but it really comes down to the materials. A conductor is a conductor, it’s either the correct conductor or it’s not. The strain release … A lot of it is… for us from just visual inspection and the rest is … like we do on every product that we put out the door.
Mike Horton: So there is low quality copper and there’s high quality copper? Isn’t copper copper?
Larry O’Connor: There are different grades of copper and while copper is copper, the level of purity of the copper makes a big difference in terms of the electrical flow.
Larry Jordan: In ethernet cables, Larry, when we move from, say, CAT4 to CAT5 and from 5E to 6, our speeds improve. Are we looking at improved performance with higher grade cables, or are we just looking at preventing problems?
Larry O’Connor: You’re definitely looking at preventing problems … higher certification … you’ve got to have the right grade copper inside. But depending upon what your application is … in ethernet cables you’ve got … solid core but if you look at … But if you have an overly thick cable, sometimes they’re compensating for a low grade of the actual conductive within the cable.
Larry Jordan: Back in the days when we were focusing principally on audio cables and, to a lesser extent, video cables, we had to deal with things like cold solder joints, which would cause an audio cable not to function properly. Do we need to even worry about technical stuff like solder joints when we’re dealing with high end data cables, like we’re talking about now?
Larry O’Connor: You do. I would say that the … performs those connections, most of … circuit’s not inside as opposed to the old, if it’s not hand done, I guess would be the easiest way … or surface, so yes it would still technically be an issue, but I would be very surprised to run into that kind of issue. Yes, there are solder joints … within the cable, that gets you from the connector … even have that potentiality with the Thunderbolt chip.
Larry O’Connor: On our Thunderbolt cable, each end has an active control, they’re active cables. That is another point of potential failure, but … certified your Thunderbolt cable design, you’ve pretty much got to be building to an accepted reference and manufacturing process. This kind of thing shouldn’t be happening today.
Larry O’Connor: However, you look at HDMI cable to video cable, even USB cables, just to get right down to the cables that we ship with our USB products, and FireWire, same kind of story, we just don’t throw any USB cable or any other … USB cables are all … the biggest commodity cable around, but the reality is there’s a big difference in what you can get in a USB cable and the USB cables we ship with our products simply come from a single factory that has been approved for both their EFI and … how much they shield and how much … out of them and, again, the copper that is inside and as you get to the higher data rate audio’s a little different today but as soon as you get into the higher data rates, the more you compromise on your cable quality, the more likelihood you’re going to have issues.
Larry O’Connor: With large … there’s plenty of room for … but at a higher speed you’re still going to get … you’re plugging into devices that are saying, ‘I’m here, hello, I’m USB 5G’ and the controller says, ‘Well, hello,’ start talking to your data …
Larry Jordan: Now, Larry, hang on a second. I need you to move a little bit in a different direction because we’re starting to lose your phone, it’s starting to fade out. One thing I want to come back to is if we own cables already and they seem to be working ok, are they ok or are there tests that we can do, without having access to hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of test gear, to know that the cables are ok? The one thing that we have to trust is our data is safe and bad cables puts that into jeopardy.
Larry O’Connor: …it’s one of the overheads on their data connection, so in terms of if there was a problem depending if it’s a minor issue or borderline, you may not know that the issue is there. Having said that, there’s not really an easy way for an end user to test the cable. But if you’re having issues, the easiest path is if there’s any kind of issue, you don’t think you’re getting the data rates you should be getting … data rates, swap the cable. … have to worry about that with, other than, again, the other aspect is, if you start with a quality cable, whether you’re just plugging it in and forgetting it or you’re on the road and constantly disconnecting and connecting that device, the higher quality product reduces the probability of physical failure down the road.
Mike Horton: Something I never even think about. If something goes wrong, I don’t think about the cable and sometimes it probably is the cable. I’ve learned something from you, Larry. Thank you.
Larry Jordan: Michael has been taking notes on this during the entire presentation and he’s now got seven legal sheets of paper marked up with what he needs to know about cables.
Mike Horton: I will buy all my cables from OWC.
Larry Jordan: I was about to do this incredible demonstration of cable coiling but …
Mike Horton: Oh my gosh, do we have time? No, we don’t have time.
Larry Jordan: No, unfortunately we don’t have time.
Mike Horton: Oh, it’s terrible.
Larry Jordan: I am so sorry. It was so close.
Mike Horton: Larry would have loved to have seen that.
Larry Jordan: Larry, for people who want to know about not only cables but other products that OWC’s got, where can they go on the web to learn more?
Larry O’Connor: They can go to our new store site, that’s owcdigital.com and, of course, they can find everything under the sun at macsales.com. There’s just one other quick thing, the same kind of thing, is this memory, that all memory is created equal.
Larry Jordan: Well, hold it, we’re going to talk memory a little bit later. We’ll come back to that but, Larry, thanks for joining us today.
Mike Horton: Yes, thanks Larry.
Larry Jordan: Take care.
Larry O’Connor: Very welcome. Thanks for having me.
Larry Jordan: Bye bye.
Larry O’Connor: Bye now.
Larry Jordan: Tim Smith has been with Canon for more than 25 years and serves as a Senior Film and Television Advisor. While he’s a good person to talk to about picking the right camera, he is an outstanding person to talk to about picking the right lens, which is exactly what we’re about to do. Hello, Tim, welcome.
Tim Smith: Hey, Larry, how are you?
Larry Jordan: We’re doing great and, while I want to spend most of our time talking about lenses, I first need you to bring us up to date on Canon cameras. What’s the latest news on camera technology from, say, NAB to today?
Tim Smith: We had a huge NAB, actually. We introduced two 4K cameras to our line-up, which includes the new C300 Mark II and a new camera called an XC10. The XC10’s actually getting ready to ship right about now, it should be seen in a while, over the next couple of weeks or so, and that’s a really small fairly inexpensive – $2500 – 4K camera, sort of the opposite of what we did in the past where we created the 5V Mark IIs, which was this still camera that seemed to pique such an interest in the moving image community.
Tim Smith: This is more of a motion camera that’s more designed like a still camera. Its primary function is to record motion, but it also does stills. It’s sort of the opposite with a ten power zoom, small, about $2500. And then the other, the bigger announcement, I think, was this new C300 Mark II, which isn’t going to ship until about September/October, but this is our newest, biggest, baddest 4K camera with internal recording and 15 stops of latitude and a whole new log, a whole new log curve. It’s a wonderful camera, great … all that kind of stuff.
Larry Jordan: Ok, so we’ve talked about cameras, but a camera’s of no value at all unless you have a good lens in it. Is Canon doing anything new in lens technology?
Tim Smith: Oh my gosh, over the last couple of years. People do think of us as Canon camera. In reality, we’re Canon lens, we’re a lens company and we have been since day one. Currently in the Eos line there’s over 60 lenses that you could put on your cameras and in the Cinema line of lenses, just in the last three years or so, we’ve produced 12 cinema lenses, anywhere from 14 millimeter to one we were showing at NAB, which is already a legend, it’s a 50 to a 1,000 cinema zoom, so it’s an enormous range in a single lens. You know, everybody laughs at that.
Larry Jordan: 50 to 1,000 zoom? What is that, it’s got to be the size of a Howitzer. It’s got to be giant.
Tim Smith: Yes, you’d think. It’s not, actually, it’s only 15 pounds.
Larry Jordan: Wow.
Tim Smith: It’s very workable. It’s really not that much bigger than our 30 to 300, which is a very common lens to be using in film and television these days. So it’s a little bit bigger than that with a built-in servo, motorized servo on it as well, so it’s pretty practical. I think there are two so far, actually, it’s a $70,000 plus lens.
Mike Horton: Jeez.
Tim Smith: There’s one at a company called … here in Hollywood for rent, I know they purchased it, and there’s one that I get to play with from time to time, but I think so far we’re just looking at two. It’ll be a few more months before there’s any real quantity of those in the world. But that’s a legendary lens and that’s where I think you go with this. We do make great cameras, but cameras have a shelf life. Lenses live forever and ever and ever and we have rental houses out there with 80, 90 million dollars’ worth of lenses that they’ve had for 30, 40, 50 years and people still rent them, people still use them.
Larry Jordan: I want to come back to that, because I had a chance to visit the Canon booth at Cinegear earlier this week, when they were at the Paramount lot in LA. Many Canon cameras come with permanently attached lenses. Since the lenses can’t be removed or changed, should we even worry about them, because they’re locked to the camera?
Tim Smith: It depends on what you’re shooting. We have a good number, and all our SLRs are interchangeable as well, but we have a good number of cinema lens cameras as well that are interchangeable. As a matter of fact, we’re making both mounts EF and PL. But the fixed lens cameras like the XE10 or the XF product, they’re really more made for news, documentary, event videography, those types of things.
Tim Smith: When it comes to narrative television or filmmaking, it’s really unlikely that a fixed lens is going to cover you. You really do look for a lot of different lenses in order to do that. A major motion picture’s always going to have a dozen different lenses to choose from and different focal lengths. The built-in zoom ones tend to be not as wide, maybe a little slower, they’re not always as sharp. They’re just very versatile and that plays well into the documentary world.
Mike Horton: Tim, this is Michael Horton here. I’m in charge of the stupid questions, so what’s the difference between the cinema lenses and the other lenses? Can we put a cinema lens on a DSLR?
Tim Smith: You can, you can. They are designed a little bit differently. Let’s go to resolution, which plays into this. In the motion world, there’s all the buzz about 4K resolution, shall we go more than 4K? But in the still world, 4K resolution is only eight megapixels. Our phones have surpassed that. 4K is a motion term. But that doesn’t mean the lenses are really proper for that. Now, we’ve used still lenses constantly on our cameras.
Tim Smith: Canon makes a great line of lenses and they’re used very specifically for different things. But a cinema lens is really designed so the edge to edge detail is sharp – instead of a looking at an image that’s been blown up to eight by ten or 11 by 14, you’re looking at an image that’s got to be sharp for 40 feet across so that when you’re sitting in a theater eight rows back, there’s detail from edge to edge.
Tim Smith: There’s also no exposure drop-off to any of the corners as well. It’s a lot more difficult to get a consistent image for that size screen and that’s where cinema plays into it. You also want faster lenses and consistent F stops. A still lens is designed where you take an F stop, take a shot, move on, maybe it’s another F stop for the next shot. You’ve got t be able to zoom or move through your range without seeing the shift in brightness because of an F stop change, so you tend to have prime lenses in the cinema world that are theoretically similar if not the same F stop through the whole prime, so as you switch from a 14 to a 24 to a 28 or whatever, you have that consistent image.
Tim Smith: So the punishment fits the crime, motion pictures and narrative television’s a little bit different than stills. That’s not to say people aren’t doing it, they are, but it has more to do with price sometimes than it does their personal choice.
Larry Jordan: There’s a term I’ve heard called breathing. What does that mean in regard to a lens?
Tim Smith: Breathing is when you’re focusing, when you focus the lens and the subject moves a little bit and you’re following the focus. If the focal length or the magnification of it seems to shift a little bit because you’re moving the glass, that’s breathing. In an ideal and expensive lens, it doesn’t breathe.
Tim Smith: There are really two key terms in cinema zooms. One is called breathing, which is what we’re talking about, the idea that you can focus without reframing, without it moving. So if you’re on one actor and you have to pull your focus to the other actor five feet away, well, it’s fine for the focus to move but you don’t want the image to change its aspect ratio, you don’t want it to change its angle of view or its … so it doesn’t look like it’s been zoomed or went wider, which sometimes can happen when a lens breathes.
Tim Smith: The other one is ramping. You don’t want the F stop to shift while you’re zooming and most lenses ramp at some point where maybe you picked an F stop of five and you’re at 60 millimeters but you’re going to zoom in to 280 millimeters. Well, during that zoom, the F stop has to change to compensate for the shift in the way the glass works. It’s expensive to make sure it doesn’t do that, but you don’t want to see the brightness of the image shift while you’re zooming. A lot of the money goes into making sure lenses don’t breathe and they don’t ramp.
Larry Jordan: You mention that there have been a lot of technology changes over the last couple of years. How has lens technology changed? Glass has been glass for a long time.
Tim Smith: It has, but we’ve had to step up to the resolutions and the new color science. Digital has changed the way we have to make a lens, but that doesn’t mean you can’t go looking for older lenses. A lot of filmmakers do. I just saw last weekend a film called ‘Ex Machina,’ which was a great film shot on a Sony F65, which was probably one of the highest resolution cameras that exists, but the cinematographer went back and got vintage glass from somewhere in the ‘70s to create a certain look, so he had to soften that information.
Tim Smith: But we now have to design a lens around a digital sensor and new color science, so it is a little bit different. But you’re right, the basics haven’t changed any. The older lenses are, in some cases, as popular as they ever were.
Mike Horton: Is the process of making a lens still the same as the last 100 years, pretty much by hand?
Tim Smith: On cinema lenses, yes. There’s not economy of scale when you’re making a $200 or $300 lens, that’s done in a machine, but these 50 to 1,000s are hand polished and hand sanded the whole process. At one point I think somebody told me there are only a couple of people even in their package that can do these lenses.
Mike Horton: Oh really?
Tim Smith: If they’re on vacation, we just wait ‘til they get back. It’s a real art. So for the higher end ones, yes, they’re still very much made by hand; and also the materials have changed. The lead content that you’re allowed to put in glass has changed, so they’ve had to come up with different ways of creating glass as some of the environmental laws have kicked in, so we’ve had to deal with that over the years. There used to be a considerable amount of lead in the glass … lenses 20 years ago and it’s just not acceptable any more, so we’ve had that change as well.
Mike Horton: Well, you’ve been around, you’ve been using the lenses forever. Are the lenses today better than they were 30, 40 years ago?
Tim Smith: Oh man. Technically, yes, but better, no, because it’s really very subjective. One of my favorite lenses from Canon is a 28 millimeter and it’s a very slow lens and it’s one of our inexpensive lenses. One of the great things about this job is I don’t buy them, but it’s probably one of our least expensive lenses and it’s not one of the better lenses, but because it’s got such a creamy look to it, such a non-perfect look to it, I like it a lot so I use it for different things that way. And then there are other lenses that are just tack sharp, just dead on.
Tim Smith: I think one of the things digital did over the last couple of years to filmmakers as they were transitioning from film to digital is it sort of took one of the options away from them. They used to be able to pick up film stock that would give them a certain look, then they would pick a lens that would give them a certain look. Now, everybody has a digital sensor and the looks are baked in to that particular company’s sensor, so if you’re shooting on a Canon or a RED or a Sony, you really look to your lens selection to help carve out that look.
Tim Smith: It doesn’t always have to be sharp as a tack and sometimes it should and maybe doing a lot of green screen work, so that’s a detail thing. But if you’re doing a period piece from the ‘50s, you don’t want it to look like Monday night football.
Larry Jordan: We have a live chat going on during our conversation, Tim and Alex are asking, what’s the difference between F stops and T stops?
Tim Smith: Mmm, ok. It’s how light is measured. An F stop is a physical opening that’s used in the 35 millimeter world, so if you’re looking at your aperture, it’s physically how large it is measured. A T stop is transmission – how much light is being passed through. It was just the way the two industries went. There is a way to convert F stops to T stops so that you can get the equivalent number, but on a still lens an F stop is the physical measurement of the actual hole, the actual opening in the aperture; and on a cinema lens we call it a T stop, and that’s the amount of light that’s being transmitted through that hole.
Tim Smith: That’s an interesting question. We get that a lot because we make both lenses and you can put a lens on one of our cameras that the lens is barreled with F stops but the camera’s a cinema camera, so it wants to read in T stops. Then there’s some software built in to do that translation for you.
Larry Jordan: One of the things we’ve been working and wrestling with here in our studio is trying to find the right lenses for the cameras that we’ve got, which caused me to discover something that I wasn’t paying any attention to before, which is that there are different lens mounts. We have MFT mounts on our gear here. Canon, I think, makes EF mounts and there are PL mounts. Why the different mounts and does it make a difference in quality and why can’t you guys all do the same thing and make my life easier?
Mike Horton: Yes, like with codecs too, you know?
Tim Smith: From your lips to God’s ears on the Mount. Canon owns the EF mount and that’s something we developed for our electronic focus cameras on the stills, like the 5Ds and so on, and we’re continuing to support that mount. But we also make the bulk of our glass in PL, which stands for positive lock. The PL mount in the film and television industry has been a universal mount system forever.
Tim Smith: It’s a good, sturdy, thick metal mount which instead of where you twist the lens onto the front of a camera and it clicks into place, in the motion picture world the lens always goes in perfectly level and then you twist the lock and mount around the lens and it takes a bite down on it. They both have their positives and their negatives. It’s really more about the economics. If you’re a rental house with $10 million worth of PL glass, how many non-PL cameras do you want to have in your rental pool that you can add lenses to the body?
Larry Jordan: Well, can we convert from different mounts? And is there a quality or image loss if we do a conversion? I’m still trying to get the lenses for my cameras.
Tim Smith: Not necessarily. Yes, conversions can be done. All of our zoom lenses can bounce between the two mounts. We have a series of six primes, though, that are dedicated into PL and there are companies that will do a conversion for that as well, to turn them into PL. But based on the price point of those lenses, they tend to play more in the still world and there are more machines in the field in EF for us to hang them on, and when it comes to profitability lenses are actually better than selling cameras.
Larry Jordan: Can I get Canon lenses to work on non-Canon cameras?
Tim Smith: I have seen that done. I should say this – there are companies out there like Blackmagic which make a camera, which is a competing product to us. I love it because they have our mount on it, so that there are a number of cameras out there that we can put our lenses on is a good thing for our business model and there are adaptors, like the switch between Canon and Nikon. It depends on the physical mount.
Tim Smith: If you’ve got a larger mount on a camera than the lens, you can adapt a lot of things. But if a lens … bigger than the camera, it’s a little bit more tricky. But yes, I’ve seen relatively inexpensive Canon to Nikon adaptors and, as long as they’re buying Canon lenses to put on somebody else’s camera, that’s probably not such a bad thing.
Larry Jordan: Which gets to my point, that you don’t have to buy the lens from the same person that makes the camera, you can mix and match as you see fit.
Tim Smith: True. If you really wanted to scratch your head over this one, though, when we design a sensor it’s based on the color science of our glass as well, so the best in terms of perfection marriage usually is the lens from the company that designed the camera as well. But that said, the changes in what you see are really purely specification changes. From a creativity standpoint, you make your own decisions on that in terms of what you want that image to look like.
Tim Smith: From an engineering standpoint, we go after the sharpest, most perfect, most lifelike reproduction of the world that you can make with an electronic camera. From a creative standpoint, imperfections are part of the image. JJ Abrams with his ability to add lens flare, I mean, we looked forever to take lens flare out of lenses and then you go see ‘Star Trek’ and all you see is lens flare.
Mike Horton: Lots of lens flare, yes.
Tim Smith: And he can use any camera, any lens he wants, but he’s not looking for perfection. There was a wonderful cinematographer named Russell Carpenter, he did ‘Titanic’ and a lot of others, but he worked on a film about Steve Jobs, all shot electronically, but it was Jobs in the ‘60s, the ‘70s, the ‘80s, the ‘90s and so on and every ten year period he was looking for lenses and glass from that era, is my understanding, in order to give it more of the flavor of that period. So you can really do a lot with the imperfections of glass to create a mood.
Mike Horton: Tim, really quickly because we don’t have much time, is it ok to buy a used lens and not ok to buy a used camera?
Tim Smith: There’s much less risk in a used lens and there’s a lot more value to a used lens. We made a series of cinema lenses in the ‘70s called the K35s and we haven’t made them in over 30 years and that lens is still in demand. I promise you, whatever camera we built in the ‘70s doesn’t have a ton of value left, but those lenses were beautiful pieces of glass and they’re still renting.
Tim Smith: I think if I were looking at equipment as an investment, I’d invest in lenses. If I’m looking at equipment to keep up with trends, I’ve got to have a camera too, but I need a business model to pay for the camera. It has to make sense. But if I’m just looking for an investment, I’d buy glass all day long.
Larry Jordan: Tim, for people who want more information, what website can they go to to learn more?
Tim Smith: www.cusa.canon.com.
Larry Jordan: And Tim Smith is the Senior Film and Television Advisor for Canon. Tim, thanks for joining us today.
Tim Smith: Thanks, Larry. Good seeing and talking to you again.
Mike Horton: Thanks Tim.
Larry Jordan: Bye bye.
Larry Jordan: So are you buying me a lens for Christmas?
Mike Horton: See, there was a lot of camera news this week – the Sony Alpha 7R2 and the Leica Q came out this week and both of them are getting a huge buzz. Sony has internal 4K; the Leica, just a tiny little fixed lens thing for $4,000. I’m sure Tim has looked at both of these but I would have liked to have heard his opinion. But there are too many cameras, Larry.
Larry Jordan: I had a chance to see cameras at Cinegear. I had a wonderful time, I spent the whole day.
Mike Horton: Yes, lots of cameras there. Oh, you did? See, I was there for about two hours and I didn’t understand anything I was looking at, so I left.
Larry Jordan: We were spending time talking codecs.
Mike Horton: Oh, is that what it was? That’s probably why I left, I overheard you and I said, “Oh my God, this is boring.”
Larry Jordan: But I was looking at lenses, I was looking at cameras and I was looking at lights and the variety is just mind-numbing. Trying to make a choice is so hard, which is what Tim …
Mike Horton: And then this year, for the second time, lots of booths with drones. Lots of booths with drones. Three years ago, no drones. Now, drones.
Larry Jordan: Even a year ago, there was barely a drone. I saw my first drone at BVE in London two years ago.
Mike Horton: Oh really?
Larry Jordan: And over the last year and a half, the technology change for drones has been amazing.
Mike Horton: Well, you saw it at NAB, they actually took a whole section of the upstairs at NAB, turned it into a drone pavilion.
Larry Jordan: Flew them around in the cage.
Mike Horton: Flew them around in the cage. Did you go up there?
Larry Jordan: Yes. Well, looking at lights, trying to decide between tungsten lights, which are old school, and the new LED lights and you can’t walk anywhere …
Mike Horton: What do we have in here? Are these tungsten?
Larry Jordan: We’ve got all tungsten except one. We’ve got one LED light, which is your back light, Mike E, and you are going to have your own LED light …
Mike Horton: You’d save a lot of electricity if you put LEDs in here.
Larry Jordan: Yes. Do you know how expensive they are?
Mike Horton: Yes, they are.
Larry Jordan: Oh man.
Mike Horton: But they’ll save you over the 20 year period that you’re here.
Larry Jordan: But one needs to invest in them first time, however.
Mike Horton: Yes, that’s the problem.
Larry Jordan: So you can buy me a lens or a light, whichever you prefer.
Mike Horton: For your birthday …
Larry Jordan: For my birthday.
Mike Horton: …an LED light key light for Larry.
Larry Jordan: It’s been a great show.
Mike Horton: Send your money to whatever Buzz is.com.
Larry Jordan: Can I thank our guests?
Mike Horton: Yes, go ahead.
Larry Jordan: We want to thank Oliver Hollis-Leick, motion capture actor and trainer; Larry O’Connor, the CEO of Other World Computing; and Tim Smith, Senior Advisor for Film and Television for Canon, who loves talked codecs as well as lenses with Mike.
Mike Horton: Yes he does.
Larry Jordan: There’s lot of history in our industry and it’s all posted to our website …
Mike Horton: He’s a fun guy to bring to parties.
Larry Jordan: …at digitalproductionbuzz.com. Much more fun than someone else I could look at. If you haven’t visited recently, check it out, we’ve been making a lot of changes to The Buzz website.
Larry Jordan: You can talk with us on Twitter, @DPBuZZ, and Facebook, at digitalproductionbuzz.com. Our theme music is composed by Nathan Doogie Turner, additional music from smartsound.com. Text transcripts provided by Take 1 Transcription. Transcripts are located on each show page and you can learn more at take1.tv and thanks, Take 1, for making it possible.
Larry Jordan: Our producer is Cirina Catania; engineering led by Megan Paulos, including Ed Golya, Keegan Guy, Alex Hackworth, Lindsay Luebbert and Brianna Murphy. On behalf of Mike Horton, my name’s Larry Jordan; and thanks for listening to The Buzz.