Digital Production Buzz
October 17, 2013
[Transcripts provided by Take1.tv]
[Click here to listen to this show.]
Armen Kevorkian, Visual Effects Supervisor, Encore VFX
Ryan Postas, Filmmaker, Elevated Minds Entertainment
Ben Consoli, Editor and Owner, BC Media Productions
Jon Schellenger, President, BC Media Productions
Voiceover: This Digital Production Buzz is brought to you by Blackmagic Design, creators of the world’s highest quality solutions for the feature film, post production and television broadcast industries.
Voiceover: Live from Ralph’s Maytag Museum at Podcast Studio in beautiful downtown Burbank, it’s the Digital Production Buzz.
Voiceover: Production, post production, distribution. What’s really happening now and in your digital future?
Voiceover: The Buzz is live now.
Larry Jordan: And welcome to The Digital Production Buzz, the leading internet podcast covering digital video production, post production and distribution around the world. My name is Larry Jordan; our co-host, the ever-affable Mr. Mike Horton has the night off.
Larry Jordan: We’ve got a variety of guests we’re going to be talking with tonight. We’re going to start with Armen Kevorkian. He’s the Visual Effects Supervisor at Encore Post. He’s going to talk about his Emmy award-winning effects for Banshee, as well as new visuals he’s creating for Homeland and Ray Donovan. One of the things I want to learn especially is how the workflow works between the director or the VFX supervisor and the VFX artist itself in creating killer visual effects.
Larry Jordan: Ryan Postas is a Director and Cinematographer at Elevated Minds Entertainment. He’s next with his thoughts on shooting the RED Dragon camera. The RED Dragon creates 6K images, and working with high resolution video, both in production and post.
Larry Jordan: Ben Consoli is a Commercial Director at BC Media Productions and he’s also the host of Go Creative. He joins us this week to talk about the world of creating broadcast television commercials and the intersection between the client, the producer and the director in creating the images of the commercials that we see on a daily basis.
Larry Jordan: And Jon Schellenger is the Founder of Cinematic Motion Pictures, as well as a sound designer and a colorist who made the shift from commercials into independent feature films. Tonight, we find out why he decided to take up independence and the kind of projects he’s working on now.
Larry Jordan: By the way, we’re doing something new this evening. We are featuring live tweets during the show. Now, in addition to our live chat, which you can access from our webpage – digitalproductionbuzz.com – you can now live tweet and ask questions of our guests. You can contact us @dpbuzz and use the hashtag #buzzlive. This is another way that we want to get questions answered for you live and on the air. Remember, that’s on Twitter, @dpbuzz, with the hashtag #buzzlive and I’m, well, we’ve got some bets going on behind the scenes here, I’m looking forward to seeing how this works.
Larry Jordan: Also, we’re continuing our text transcripts for each show, courtesy of Take1.tv. Now you can quickly scan or print the contents of every show, as well as listen to it. Transcripts are located on each show page – there’s a big button that says ‘Show Transcript’ – and thanks to Take1.tv for making it possible.
Larry Jordan: Finally, thinking about new events, I’ve got a special seminar on managing and editing high resolution media using Final Cut Pro X. The seminar is coming up as a single one day event on Tuesday November 12th in Burbank. I’ll have more on this later in the show, but to learn more now, visit larryjordan.biz/event.
Larry Jordan: Remember to visit us on Facebook, at digitalproductionbuzz.com. As I’ve told you, we’re on Twitter, @dpbuzz, and subscribe to our weekly show newsletter at digitalproductionbuzz.com for all the latest news on both our show and the industry.
Larry Jordan: We’ve got a ton of stuff to cover on the show. We’ve got the live chat, where you can get questions answered; we’ve got our live tweeting; and, most importantly, we’ve got great guests, starting with Armen Kevorkian, the Visual Effects Supervisor at Encore Post, coming up right after this.
Larry Jordan: Blackmagic Design made two big announcements recently. First, the ATEM1 ME production studio switcher added a host of new features, including ten independent 6 gigabyte SDI – that’s 6G SDI – inputs, each with frame sync, a built-in DVE with zoom scale and rotate, four upstream chroma keyers, three independent auxiliary outputs and a larger media pool for still frames and motion video clips.
Larry Jordan: Second, Blackmagic released the public beta of DaVinci Resolve 10. This major update includes improved project integration from multiple editing systems, upgraded on-set tools, support for open effects plug-ins and the ability to create DCP packages inside Resolve for projects destined for theatrical delivery; and DaVinci Resolve Lite now supports ultra HD and it’s still free. Visit blackmagicdesign.com. That’s blackmagicdesign.com.
Larry Jordan: Visual Effects Supervisor Armen Kevorkian works at Encore Post in Hollywood, where he supervises the visual effects on Homeland and Ray Donovan. Recently, Encore VFX received an Emmy for supporting visual effects for the Cinemax show Banshee. Welcome, Armen.
Armen Kevorkian: Thank you, thank you. Good to be with you.
Larry Jordan: Well, we are delighted to have you with us, so let’s start with getting our basics covered. Tell us about Encore, Encore Post and Encore VFX. What does the company do?
Armen Kevorkian: Well, Encore Post has been around for a fairly long time. You know, they used to do dailies, transfers, onlines and things like that. I mean, the game’s kind of changed now where we still kind of do the same thing but, you know, everything’s kind of gone into the digital world and Encore Visual Effects was a small unit that they started back in the day just to kind of do the day to day VFX fixes that in-house shows would have and over the years it’s grown to an actual visual effects facility. That’s on top of the post production facility, basically.
Larry Jordan: Well, your role with the company is listed as VFX Supervisor. Is that more administrative, where you’re supervising the staff, or creative, where you’re designing the overall look of an effect?
Armen Kevorkian: It’s actually a little bit of both. As a visual effects supervisor, you’re pretty much there with the shows from the very beginning, where you’re planning with them at the script stage, trying to figure out what the best way to shoot is, what they need to get shot that has visual effects in it, being on set with them when they actually shoot it and then, when I finish, I do come back and I do work with the artist to get the final product out to the client.
Larry Jordan: Well, help me understand sort of how it fits together. We’ve got the producer, the director, the VFX supervisor and then the actual VFX artist. Who’s the one that decides what the look of an effect is going to be and how that effect gets implemented?
Armen Kevorkian: A lot of times, at least the way that I work is, you know, I’ll meet with the director of the project and the producers of the project and we’ll talk about the effects that, you know, need to be done for that specific show and we’ll go back and forth and that’s probably one of my favorite jobs, is trying to figure out what’s a cool way to do something that is easy to shoot, because the TV schedule’s a little bit different, obviously, than feature schedules where you don’t have the time to actually do it – I don’t want to say not properly – but you’re very limited on time so you have to come up with creative ways to shoot something but at the same time, though, you know, the final product has to look just as good.
Larry Jordan: Well, would a director say to you, “I want a black swirly thing,” or is he giving you sketches and trying to be really specific?
Armen Kevorkian: Sometimes. What I like to do as well is, if there is something conceptual, is get some of our artists working early on with drawings or tests and showing people visually, because sometimes it’s hard for them to express what they want, which is kind of what I did with the project, there’s a TV show that’s on the air now called Tomorrow People and one of the main gags is that they teleport out and when I met Danny Cannon, who directed the pilot, we discussed what this might be and he had some thoughts and I thought you know what, I’m going to do is before we start even shooting the pilot. I shot footage of my kids and I had one of my lead CG supervisors kind of work with me and we went back and forth with Danny to come up with this look; and at the end, basically, you had a little sequence of my kids teleporting back and forth, who thought it was the coolest thing ever.
Larry Jordan: Oh, I’m sure.
Armen Kevorkian: My daughter, who’s 14, you’d think she wouldn’t really be into that, she was like, “I don’t think I’ve seen anything this cool in my life.” So, you know, it’s a nice way to show directors and producers, rather than just talk about it. I’m a big fan also of, like, conceptual art where it might be a futuristic city or whatever it might be, just to get someone working on it right away back and forth, because sometimes when you see something it’s easier to give notes on than just to talk about it.
Larry Jordan: By the way, before we go farther, I want to congratulate you on winning, let’s see what it is, a Supporting Special Visual Effects Award…
Armen Kevorkian: Yes, thank you.
Larry Jordan: …for the Cinemax show Banshee. What did you do for that?
Armen Kevorkian: For Banshee, for the pilot, they had a sequence – the show shoots regularly in North Carolina – but there was a sequence that we went to New York to shoot, where our main character basically is getting away from the bad guys and he’s on Fifth Avenue, he’s just had a car crash and he has to run through all this traffic, dodging cars, and as he’s dodging cars, one of those big double decker buses, you know, the tour buses, brakes really hard, swerves, falls and skids towards him as he’s running away from it now.
Armen Kevorkian: So, when we read the script, they had some ideas where they were going to have some real, the bus was going to be fake, but then they realized they could only close down Fifth Avenue for five hours and it’s only limited, the areas you can close down as well, there’s like two blocks and I said, “Guys, let’s just try doing everything CG, so we don’t have to reset the cars,” because that would have been a nightmare in five hours, trying to get that whole sequence down. Plus it was safer for the, they wanted to really use the actor instead of a stunt guy, so you could really see his face as he’s running away.
Larry Jordan: Actors really don’t like being around skidding buses tipping over and sliding.
Armen Kevorkian: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Even though he was starting out, I think he would have been ok with it. But yes, so we decided, you know what? Let’s do it. So I went to New York for that shoot. We set up cones for a path. I mean, we actually pre-visited it with storyboards first, then we all got together with the set coordinator and the director Greg Yaitanes and we had little toy cars that we kind of set up during one of our scouts and kind of said, “Ok, this is what this would do, this is what that would do,” and then we just set up orange cones and some chalk marks so our actor knew exactly what was happening at each point.
Armen Kevorkian: And if you ever get a chance – and I can always send you a link of the before and after event sequence – a lot of people who watched the show probably knew the bus was a visual effect, but no-one had any idea that the cars were a visual effect.
Larry Jordan: By the way, we have a live chat going on and Bruce, who’s on the live chat, has a question, back to Tomorrow People.
Armen Kevorkian: Sure.
Larry Jordan: They were curious how much you can recycle those teleport effects. Is there a template that you’re using, or does everything have to be created originally?
Armen Kevorkian: No, every shot is its own shot. What we do is we actually use the, if you notice with the teleports, we actually use the footage of the actor to kind of break up in a particle system and then there are some other effects that we add on it, of course, so depending on what they’re wearing and what environment they are, the teleport will actually look like it’s, you know, grounded in that world.
Larry Jordan: And the actor’s shot in front of a green screen? Or do you have to rotoscope them?
Armen Kevorkian: No, we rotoscope them.
Larry Jordan: Wow. That sounds like a lot of work.
Armen Kevorkian: There’s a lot of rotoscope that goes out in television and I’m actually a big fan of it, when I know we could do it, because it just saves time.
Larry Jordan: I would have thought green screen would have been easier rather than rotoscoping, because rotoscoping you have to hand draw, don’t you?
Armen Kevorkian: You do on the post end, but to set up a green screen with productions nowadays, it’s a little difficult. I mean, not to say that we don’t use green screen any more, we do use it quite a bit, but it’s a case by case basis where I kind of weigh to see what’s an easier way to do it.
Larry Jordan: Ah, by saving time in production. You’re going to spend time in post, but you’ve got more time in post to spend?
Armen Kevorkian: Yes, there’s that, and then there’s also, sometimes when you set up a green screen, they change the lighting and stuff like that, so even the match is not great, so I’m a big fan of them being in the world that they live in without any kind of lighting change.
Larry Jordan: And Bruce wants to know what tools you’re using for rotoscoping.
Armen Kevorkian: For roto, our guys, you know, sometimes, I mean, depending on if it’s a few frames of roto, they’ll just roto in Nuke. You know, that’s the software that we use for the majority of our compositing, but we also have After Effects artists and our 3D department uses 3D Studio Max and there’s a few guys who dabble in Lightwave, so I’m a big fan of artists rather than the software that they use, so if you come and you have the talent and you require certain software, then I’ll make sure you get it, you know? It’s the talent that’s important, you know?
Larry Jordan: Getting back to Banshee, what was it that made that project unique?
Armen Kevorkian: Well, it was risky because in television, with time and the money that they want to spend, to be that up close with cars, everybody knows what a car looks like, so when it looks fake, it looks fake. You can’t get away with it. You know, when you do a space show, it’s a spaceship in space, you know, there’s a little bit of license as to what it looks like. But when you’re in the real world and it’s a show that doesn’t have visual effects, I think it’s a little bit more difficult to kind of sell good effects on shows like that.
Larry Jordan: The Ford has to look like a Ford.
Armen Kevorkian: Exactly. Exactly.
Larry Jordan: A couple of months ago, we were reading that the visual effects industry was in serious disarray from both a financial and bidding point of view. Has that situation eased at all?
Armen Kevorkian: No, not really.
Larry Jordan: Oh, I’m so sorry.
Armen Kevorkian: No.
Larry Jordan: That’s too depressing. I don’t want to talk about it. We’ll just move on.
Armen Kevorkian: Ok. We’ll do that the next time we talk.
Larry Jordan: I mean, I know that you’re in the industry so you’re affected personally, but it strikes me that that’s more on the business side than on the creative side. Is that true?
Armen Kevorkian: Yes, but it affects us all. I mean, a lot of times, depending on the show or the studio or whatever it may be, because you’re the last thing that they have to worry about getting done, they’ll usually take away or try to take away the money from you in the beginning. So let’s say you do read a script, you budget it out and it’s X amount of dollars, but they’re over budget an episode. I’ll give you an example – let’s say it’s a show that needs to get the episode done for $2 million. Pretty much every department has a budget and a pattern that they have to meet. With visual effects, and any other department, you read the script, sometimes you have a lot of effects, sometimes you don’t have a lot of effects. The ones that you’re over, they want you to cut and you’ll say, well, the only way you could cut it is if the words are not there, correct?
Larry Jordan: Mhmm.
Armen Kevorkian: So a lot of times they will maybe make some changes, but when it gets into editorial other times, they’ve added some of these effects because it just makes it more exciting, like the original script had it, and sometimes studios and shows kind of almost expect it to be done anyway, even if the budget isn’t the original budget. Does that make sense?
Larry Jordan: Oh yes. In other words, forget the numbers, make it look great, regardless of what it costs you.
Armen Kevorkian: Yes and, I mean, we’re a big fan, you know, especially at Encore, what’s great is, like, we don’t nitpick shows where, again, another example, let’s say you have five teleports and then it ends up in that scene being, you know, seven. We don’t nitpick and say, “Hey, you have two extras.” I mean, everybody who works on the show, the team I have is amazing and they really love working on the show and my other shows as well, so then you have these really excited talented artists who are giving their all. I just hope one day the studios and shows appreciate that.
Larry Jordan: But how do you budget for something that hasn’t been created before?
Armen Kevorkian: Well, a lot of times it’s kind of, I don’t want to say a guessing game, but you figure, well, it’s going to take me X amount of days to build, let’s say, a car. Then it’s going to take me X amount of days to track the shot. I mean, you kind of in your head, you know, based on experience, you know, you ask your main supervisors there as far as, you know, we have a 3D supervisor and a 2D supervisor, and I’ll sit down and talk with them a lot of times and say, “Hey, I think it’s going to be this, what do you guys think?” and, you know, most of the time we’re on the same page, but other times, you know, someone will bring up a point – “Hey, what if this is…” especially the stuff that you were talking about that hasn’t been established, let’s say teleport effects.
Armen Kevorkian: If you haven’t done your R&D, there’ll be a lot of back and forth with the client where what does this look like? So you might spend a month. So you kind of have to take all those things into consideration when you budget.
Larry Jordan: Wow. What projects are you working on now?
Armen Kevorkian: Well, I’m currently in New York, I’m doing a pilot for HBO called The Money. It’s a new David Milch project. Again, it’s invisible effects, it’s set extensions, green screens out the window and all that. But I’m here to kind of help him set up everything and I’ll be here for just a few days. I’m still working on Tomorrow People. I found someone in Vancouver who’s doing the day to day set stuff for me so I don’t have to go back and forth and we do have one major gag, which is the teleport, so between that and some of the other regular gags, I trust someone just to take care of the day to day of that.
Larry Jordan: But you’re calling it a gag. A gag simply is an industry term for an effect. It doesn’t necessarily have to be humorous.
Armen Kevorkian: Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yes, yes. No, no, no, it’s not humorous. Hopefully not humorous. Hopefully we’re doing a good enough job that it doesn’t look funny.
Larry Jordan: So, in the short period of time we’ve got left, what effects are you looking to create that you haven’t? What’s the next challenge for you?
Armen Kevorkian: The biggest challenge is actually what I’m working on right now, is I’m going to be doing the Flash TV show and I think that’s one of the hardest effects to pull off to make it look cool and grounded in reality, where you have this speeding human being going through different environments. That won’t shoot until next year, the pilot…
Larry Jordan: So you’ve got time to think about it.
Armen Kevorkian: …but it’s definitely going to be a challenge.
Larry Jordan: For people that want to keep track of the stuff that you’re working on, what website can they go check out?
Armen Kevorkian: They could probably go to our Encore website and, you know, there’s a area that has like a separate visual effects section.
Larry Jordan: And the URL is?
Armen Kevorkian: I believe it’s encorepost.com.
Larry Jordan: See, nice job, because you got that exactly right – encorepost, all one word, encorepost.com and the Visual Effects Supervisor of Encore VFX is Armen Kevorkian and, Armen, thanks for joining us today.
Armen Kevorkian: All right, thank you very much.
Larry Jordan: Mhmm, bye bye.
Armen Kevorkian: Bye.
Larry Jordan: Los Angeles based film maker Ryan Postas works as a cinematographer, an editor, producer and director and frequently works with music videos. We spoke with him recently on The Buzz, but he’s been working with the new RED Dragon camera on a shoot that we want to learn a little bit more about. Welcome, Ryan.
Ryan Postas: Hey, thanks for having me again.
Larry Jordan: So let’s start with the basics – what is the RED Dragon?
Ryan Postas: Well, people, if they’re not familiar with RED, they do something pretty great and they allow people that have purchased their cameras in the past to upgrade their previous cameras whenever a new sensor comes out. So they’ve had different incarnations before. The RED1 was their original camera; they allowed people to trade that in and upgrade to the Epic M, Epic X sensor; and then now, their newest one is the Dragon sensor, so people that have the Epic M cameras are now able to trade them in for their latest and greatest, the RED Epic Dragon.
Larry Jordan: Well, aside from a killer name, what makes the Dragon special?
Ryan Postas: Most importantly to kind of everyday shooters, it’s going to be the dynamic range that’s included in the camera. The resolution is pretty incredible as well, it’s a 6K camera now, and a lot of people might not have their minds kind of set on that much resolution, but once you kind of get into the camera and you get into the workflow, it really makes a lot of sense to have that much room to work with.
Ryan Postas: You know, when you’re working independently, which I do, I don’t have a lot of the big toys that a lot of these other guys have as far as camera stabilization, Technocranes, Steadycams, these kinds of things, so a lot of times I’m operating handheld and over the years I’ve done so much handheld work that I’m pretty steady and I can do a pretty good job, but there’s definitely going to be some camera shake. So, you know, when you get into editing and you see a shot and it’s kind of a little shaky, like it could be a little more sturdy, you can use some great software for stabilizing those images.
Ryan Postas: However, in order to stabilize, you’re going to crop. If I’m working on some 1080 footage, just straight HD, if I get in there and I start cropping and stabilizing, I’m kind of getting down to a resolution of about 720p or so, which is pretty undesirable. So now if we’re talking about 6K, if we’re talking about that much resolution, you have plenty of room to work with and most likely you’re going to do a 4K finish and so you still have so much information there that your 4K finish is going to look really, really gorgeous and really beautiful. So that for me is one thing that really stands out and, I guess, something that people might overlook as far as possibilities in post production.
Larry Jordan: Well, you’ve also got the ability to re-frame shots, don’t you? Because you can go in for a tight shot where you didn’t plan to do one.
Ryan Postas: That’s absolutely correct, and I’ve had experience doing that before where one of my fresh projects shooting on the Epic camera, we were stealing our location and didn’t have time for a lot of coverage so I shot a lot of my masters and my mediums, but I never did any close-ups and when I got into post, I definitely needed some and since I was finishing in 1080, I took 5K wide shots, punched all the way in into my actor and all of a sudden I had a close-up that was cleaner than I would have gotten shooting 1080. It was just really, really incredible, the range that I had to work with.
Larry Jordan: What project were you working on and what were you doing for it?
Ryan Postas: A short film called The Red Dress and it was directed by Ketch Rossi, who’s a guy that’s really big in the RED community. He’s been a supporter of RED since the very beginning and so, because of that, he’s one of the first guys to get his hands on the camera. So there’s not too many out there; there are some projects starting to come up, so it’s really exciting for me to be a part of that.
Larry Jordan: You had a chance not only to work with the Dragon, but also the RED Epic and you’ve also been debating between those two and the Blackmagic camera. What’s the current state of your thought process?
Ryan Postas: My current state is definitely that RED kind of runs everything hands down. I mean, they’ve been doing this before everybody; their founder, Jim Jannard, had this vision back in 2006 about coming up with some type of a digital format that could replace film and do it justice, and I believe that they’ve already surpassed that idea.
Ryan Postas: I mean, even the RED 1 is still an incredible camera. It’s crazy how fast the technology moves. People are, you know, always onto the newest thing, the newest thing and, I mean, if you could get your hands on a RED 1, you’re still going to come out with beautiful images. I mean, it’s an Academy Award nominated camera and their line-up of the cameras are just incredible. I mean, it’s kind of a dream come true.
Ryan Postas: Going back to the project with Ketch, so he asked me to come on and direct the behind the scenes and treat it as if it was a film itself. He didn’t want to call me a videographer, which I appreciate. He called me a cinematographer and actually there’s a new term that Jim Jannard has copyrighted called the cinephotographer, which is really interesting, because these cameras are DSMC cameras, so they’re digital stills and motion cameras, so any of the footage that you go into REDCINE-X you can pull very, very high quality frame grabs that are basically the same resolution that you would get out of a regular stills camera, which I have actually done. It took a lot of stills from all of my footage and played some online for Ketch and the guys that were there to see some of the BTF stuff and so they’re photographs. I mean, they’re very high resolution images that have been pulled from cinema footage.
Ryan Postas: So you’re also saving a lot of time on that. I mean, I wasn’t thinking about still images at all, but now all of a sudden I have about 350 images that I’ve pulled that we now have for promotional uses, that people are asking me to use for websites and Twitter and Instagram and all these things, so they’re incredible versatile.
Larry Jordan: Ryan, there’s a lot of conversation that RED footage is hard to work with. When you’re getting ready to edit RED in post, what do you have to do to prep it and what software do you prefer editing the RED footage in?
Ryan Postas: You know, nowadays, all I need is to take my hard drive, plug it into my computer, open up Adobe Creative Suite, CS6, and I can immediately start working directly off of my 5K footage. The great thing that Adobe is doing now is allowing you to play back half, quarter, eighth and sixteenth resolution images. That way, you’re basically working off property files but you have not transcoded, you haven’t done any type of processing to the footage that normally you would have had to do in the past or still have to do in, say, Final Cut 7.
Ryan Postas: I mean, if you want to try to get into Final Cut 7, even with a DSLR you need to transcode to Pro Res, so a lot of time is wasted, a lot of space is wasted. Working with this new workflow with Adobe and the RED footage is as seamless as it gets and if you think about taking 5K resolution footage and playing it back at a quarter resolution, you’re now doing footage at 1080 and it’s crisp and clear and I only edit on an iMac, a 27 inch iMac, nothing fancy, and it handles it and I get my work done and it’s pretty time efficient.
Larry Jordan: Ryan, I want to touch base with you throughout the editing process of this behind the scenes, but this has been a great update on RED. For people who want to keep track of you, where can they go on the web to learn more?
Ryan Postas: So I have my website, it’s ryanpostas.com. Also another URL is elevatedmindsentertainment.com. That’s my production company. And I also post to Twitter. Instagram is probably my main outlet for social media, because I like to post a lot of the work that I do, little video clips; and my Twitter and Instagram handle both are Itspostas.
Larry Jordan: And just to give everybody a single website, that’s ryanpostas.com. Ryan is a Los Angeles based producer, director, cinematographer and now cinephotographer. Ryan, thanks for joining us today.
Ryan Postas: Thank you so much for having me.
Larry Jordan: Ben Consoli has over ten years’ experience as a director, director of photography and as an editor. Since 2007, when he founded BC Media Productions, Ben has worked with clients such as Nike, Puma, Verizon, Gillette, Pillsbury, you know, small companies nobody’s ever heard of. His commercial for Dragon Naturally Speaking aired during the Super Bowl in 2010 to critical acclaim and his podcast, the Go Creative Show, highlights creative professionals. Welcome, Ben.
Ben Consoli: How are you? Thanks so much for having me on.
Larry Jordan: I am talking to you, how can I not be great?
Ben Consoli: It is an honor to speak to you and I just want to say that right up front.
Larry Jordan: Thank you.
Ben Consoli: Very, very much appreciate being on the show, so thank you.
Larry Jordan: Well, we are glad to have you here and let’s start with a simple question to get you warmed up – what is BC Media?
Ben Consoli: Well, BC Media Productions is my production company and I’ve been sort of fostering it since college and a couple of years after, you know, I got out is when I realized that I think I like this stuff, so I focused my attention on it and built it.
Larry Jordan: Well, what got you started creating commercials?
Ben Consoli: Commercials have always been something that I’m very interested in and when I began doing BC Media Productions, I realized that ad agencies is where the money was and that’s where the bigger projects were and they happened to be doing commercials and that’s where I started grinding my teeth on stuff.
Larry Jordan: Well, tell me about your Super Bowl ad, for when you were doing Dragon Naturally Speaking. How did you land that gig? Super Bowl ads are special.
Ben Consoli: Yes, and the crazy thing about it, Larry, is that it wasn’t supposed to be on TV, let alone the Super Bowl. We did a series of spots for web only and the client was so happy with them and liked the concept so much that they decided to buy air time during the Super Bowl, and it blew everybody away that it was even happening. It worked out great, though, because it was such a great surprise and that really opened a lot of doors for me once that happened.
Larry Jordan: Well, how did you land the gig in the first place?
Ben Consoli: I had been working with the ad agency Forge Worldwide here in Boston and we had done a couple of projects together and this one was the first one that was going to be a 30 second spot, but again it was only supposed to be pre-roll ads online, like if you were watching a show on cbs.com, there’d be an ad there, but it was never meant for TV.
Larry Jordan: Well, I was thinking, Dragon is a company that makes voice recognition software, it’s a highly technical product and you’re creating an ad for a general audience. There’s an automatic disconnect. How do you create a commercial for a technical product?
Ben Consoli: You just have to make the people interesting that are in the commercial, you have to make the people relatable. If the audience is not able to form a connection, good or bad, but any sort of connection with the person on the screen in 30 seconds, you’ve lost them. So it was just about making the people as real as possible.
Larry Jordan: So in your case, you’re going after the actors and the characters they portray, not the product.
Ben Consoli: Oh yes, absolutely. The product is always, you know, the end result, selling the product, but our goal is to tell the story and make it appealing.
Larry Jordan: Does that mean more of your work is now focused to the web, because it gives you the time to tell stories? Or is most of your work being done for broadcast?
Ben Consoli: My company’s split about 50/50, you know? It’s half TV commercials that are at a strict 30 or 60 seconds, and half web videos where they’re not as tight but you know as well as I do and everybody listening that there’s a certain timeframe online that people can handle, so it may not be 30 seconds, but it’s generally about a minute and a half, two and a half minutes, around there.
Larry Jordan: Yes, but with the web, if you don’t get their attention in the first four seconds or less, you’ve lost them
Ben Consoli: I know.
Larry Jordan: I mean, broadcasts is not as strict as that.
Ben Consoli: Yes. It’s strict in some ways but, you know, people will sit through an ad because they’re sitting and they’re there. With online, they can so easily just disconnect that it changes the landscape quite a bit.
Larry Jordan: So how do you avoid slashing your wrists because people are clicking off your ad?
Ben Consoli: You’ve just got to try to make the first ten seconds as high impact as possible, but realize that, you know, people have the choice to leave the video and, you know, hopefully the first ten seconds, five seconds, will let them know what it’s about so that people who are interested will stay. I mean, it’s crazy, but you’re making videos for people that may watch ten seconds of it, but that’s how it is nowadays.
Larry Jordan: Yes, I was just thinking, back in the old days, you know, before you were born, when I was doing television, we were really frustrated with taking a 60 second spot and boiling it down to 30. Now you’re dealing with the first five seconds. If you haven’t got them by then, you’re not going to get them. That’s huge amounts of pressure.
Ben Consoli: It is, and you’re making me nervous now.
Larry Jordan: Good, because I’d rather be…
Ben Consoli: I try not to think of that, Larry.
Larry Jordan: I’d rather it be you than be me. How has the creative side of the commercial business changed over the last few years? Or has it always been storytelling?
Ben Consoli: It’s always been storytelling, but just like you said, the timeframes have changed and from the creative standpoint, you really have to do your best to engage people within the first five to ten seconds, just like we were saying. I think that’s where the changes have been on the creative side.
Larry Jordan: Having worked both in advertising and in broadcast, sponsors are notoriously risk adverse. How do you encourage them to take creative risks to get attention? Because it’s their money and it’s your idea.
Ben Consoli: Well, they have to put a lot of trust in you and I think, when I first started out, I would do everything possible to please my client and basically regurgitate what they told me they wanted. But the more that I’ve been doing and the more that I have a track record now, they trust me more. I still have to pitch hard to get my ideas across, but I’m noticing in the past year or so, I’ve been able to push a little bit further with clients; and really the dance between the creative side and the client side is the client always wants more information and the creative side always wants less, because we know that if you can’t tell the story in one sentence, you can’t tell the story. They want everything possible to be said about their company.
Ben Consoli: So that’s the balance and it’s a little dance that we do, but they just have to trust you. A good client is going to trust you. It’s just hard to find those clients.
Larry Jordan: Yes, I know exactly the balance in the stuff that I write. I’m always trying to say, do I have to explain every step or can I just say magic happens here? And I always opt for more words, so you and I would probably be on the opposite sides of the table on that.
Larry Jordan: What’s the status of budgets today? I know that in a lot of the industry over the last five years, budgets have just fallen to the floor. Have commercials done the same thing? Have they stabilized or are they still falling?
Ben Consoli: Yes, I’ve noticed that when I work directly with businesses, strangely enough I’ve noticed that the businesses’ budgets are pretty much the same as they were, maybe a little bit higher, but they’re a lot lower overall. For commercials through the agencies, they’re a lot more expensive and I have noticed, I’d say, about a ten to 15 percent drop in budget. But the gear costs less to rent and, you know, the editing costs are a little bit less, so there are some savings but I really think that the next big wave of commercial production and budgets rising a little bit is when 4K really becomes a standard for ad agencies. It’s getting there, it’s not there just yet, but when it is it’ll be one of those items where you could say, “Ok, well, you know, we’re shooting 4K so now we need to upgrade the lights and we need to upgrade this and that,” and I think that’s going to allow for budgets to rise a little bit.
Larry Jordan: Aside from re-framing a shot, there is no way to distribute 4K. Why would you want to shoot 4K for a commercial?
Ben Consoli: I don’t shoot 4K right now and I haven’t yet, but I think it’s one of those things where once the agencies lock onto 4K as a buzz word and a way to sell their client on something with a higher budget, they’re going to take it. I think that clients are just not prepped yet for 4K, but once they start getting 4K TVs and once they start talking about 4K among their family members, that’s when the agencies are going to start realizing that that’s an opportunity to make a little bit more money, and I think that’s when TV commercials are going to get the 4K boost, and also for archival.
Ben Consoli: If you can talk a client into, well, let’s do it in 4K so that, you know, X amount of years from now, you won’t have to re-shoot it – which is a load of crap – that’s just a way to kind of get a client engaged, I think.
Larry Jordan: Would you change your creative approach if you were shooting at 4K?
Ben Consoli: You know, I’d like to say that I would continue to frame correctly, but I think that knowing you have some room, I’d probably shoot wider. I’d probably rely on the 4K to be a close-up shot as well. You know, I’d like to think that I wouldn’t do that, but I think I would… just to be honest with you.
Larry Jordan: Let’s put your directing hat back on again. What’s your process for designing a commercial once you’re handed the script? Or do you write the script?
Ben Consoli: When we work with agencies, we’re handed the script. When we work with businesses directly and they don’t have an internal marketing team, we are providing the creative. On the agency side, when I get a script, my first job is to simplify – how can we tell this story in less words? How can we tell this story with less shots? – and really trying to make the 30 second ad breathe, which is very hard to do because there’s not a lot of time in 30 seconds, but it’s a puzzle and if you can make the ad not feel fast and not feel slow, then you have a really great ad and that’s very hard to do just based on a script. I think it takes a keen eye with an experience on 30 seconds ads to be able to take a script and know how much time you need to tell that story, and that’s our first goal.
Larry Jordan: What’s the most challenging aspect of directing a commercial? Is it pre-production, production or figuring out how to fix it in editing?
Ben Consoli: Well, the edit poses challenges because you really have to get down to that 30 seconds, so every frame needs to be perfect. But I think the most challenging, for me at least, is probably the production, only because the performances need to be so tight in order to fit the 30 seconds, so it’s hard as a director to get just the right timing on performances. Sometimes they’ll run too long, sometimes they’ll run too short and you don’t want a nightmare in the edit, so trying to direct the talent to perhaps speak a little faster than they would, or slower, and just constantly making sure that they understand the timing of the piece without stressing them out is probably the most challenging thing for me.
Larry Jordan: Are you directing with a stopwatch?
Ben Consoli: I do sometimes. I usually don’t let the talent see that. It’s like I’ll have a script supervisor timing things out, but the answer is yes but I try to make it seem like we’re not doing that. I like the shoot to feel like a short film or a film rather than a commercial. I think it keeps the actors at ease a little more.
Larry Jordan: So for you, the hard part is getting the performance that you need in the time that’s available.
Ben Consoli: Yes, yes, because you don’t want to rush the actors but you also have to, you know, ask for faster takes and it’s just tough because sometimes it’s an unnatural type of conversation in order to fit 30 seconds, so getting that timing just right is challenging.
Larry Jordan: Do you have a preferred camera or video format that you like to shoot in?
Ben Consoli: Whenever we shoot with the Alexa, I love it. That’s probably my favorite camera to have on set. Most of the time, it’s C300s and 500s and I always have an FS700 package with me all the time for pick-ups, you know, a random side angle or some slo-mo or whatever. I like to have that on set as a back-up all the time, but I think the most common right now is the C300s. However, I want more Alexa in the mix. Who doesn’t?
Larry Jordan: Yes, it’s a beautiful camera. Do you have lenses you like?
Ben Consoli: I’m loving the CP2s right now.
Larry Jordan: And they’re made by who?
Ben Consoli: Those are Zeiss.
Larry Jordan: Ok.
Ben Consoli: Those Zeiss CP2s are phenomenal. The Cooke Primes are beautiful. Those are very expensive, but I really like those; and, you know, you just can’t beat those old Nikons too. There’s something so great about those older generation Nikkor Primes that are just so pleasing and I have those on set a lot too.
Larry Jordan: For directors that want to do what you’re doing when you finally take a break, what advice do you have for people that want to get into shooting high quality commercials?
Ben Consoli: From the shooting side or the directing side?
Larry Jordan: Ah, sorry, my fault, the directing side.
Ben Consoli: I think the advice is more about your relationship with the agency and the client. You’ve got to build a trust there before you do anything. You’ve got to make sure that the client and the agency and you are all on the same page, because a commercial is so specific and every frame is so important, you don’t want anybody second guessing. So that pre-production stage is probably more valuable in a commercial than anything else I’ve ever worked on because you need that trust and it’s very hard to fix it in post with a 30 second ad.
Larry Jordan: Ben, in the time that we’ve had, I haven’t even had a chance to talk about your podcast, Go Creative, nor have we even referred to the website that you’ve got and I’m out of time. What website can people go to to keep track of all the cool stuff you’ve got bubbling away?
Ben Consoli: Well, my company is bcmediaproductions.com, and Go Creative Show is the podcast of which you will be a guest very soon.
Larry Jordan: Well, you’ve got to return our phone calls, guy. We’ve been contacting your people and your people aren’t calling us back. We’ve got to have a strong word about this.
Ben Consoli: We’re very casual at Go Creative though.
Larry Jordan: I would love to be a guest and, Ben, thanks for joining us. The website is bcmediaproductions.com. Ben Consoli is the Founder, the Director and Editor and owner of BC Media Productions. Ben, thanks for joining us and we’ll talk to you soon.
Ben Consoli: Thank you so much.
Larry Jordan: Bye bye.
Larry Jordan: Jon Schellenger is the President of the Florida based production company Cinematic Motion Pictures, specializing in local and national TV commercials, corporate videos and now moving into independent features. He’s currently doing sound design and color grading for the upcoming Hollow Creek movie from director Guisela Moro. Welcome, Jon.
Jon Schellenger: Hey, how you doing, Larry? It’s good to hear from you again.
Larry Jordan: We are talking to you, it’s a great show. You’re our fourth guest and the first three have been phenomenal and you’re going to do a great job too.
Larry Jordan: You know, the last time we spoke – which is a while ago, I will admit – you were running a company called Glamour Key. What happened?
Jon Schellenger: You know, it was a great concept, but it went down in flames.
Larry Jordan: Just tell us the concept first, because the concept is mind-bendingly great.
Jon Schellenger: Yes, it was a great idea. I mean, we were one of the first reservation holders for the RED camera when that came out and we initially started shooting green screen glamour, so what we would do is we’d bring in models, they would actually model and do different things in front of the green screen and then we would key it and then basically an ad agency could come in there, buy the shot and then put whatever background that they wanted.
Jon Schellenger: And we were really pushing the boundaries because, instead of doing pre-multiplied alpha channels, we were doing more like straight alpha channels, so we can make it to where it’s just the perfect, perfect key and you can just drag and drop it right into Final Cut, Premiere, Avid and with great results.
Larry Jordan: It was amazing stuff. I had a chance to look at several clips. They would be walked around, you could use them as extras in a scene, some of the pop-ups where they would pop up from behind a table and look like they were peering over the top of a website, there was some really creative stuff going on here. What happened?
Jon Schellenger: Yes, I mean, we fought really hard to get it out there. I think the problem that ultimately killed us was, you know, SEO, which is the search engine optimization. Nobody could find us and we built a massive site and at one point we had over 4,000 different clips…
Larry Jordan: Oh my goodness.
Jon Schellenger: …and then we were even going to the extreme of saying, “Ok, we’re going to definitely go into doing stock footage for sure and go right up with Pond5 and try to compete against iStock,” and, you know, we had other contributors that wanted to put stuff on the website and at one point we had 30,000 clips that were sitting on a hard drive, just standing by to go and be uploaded to the site, but we’re not making a dime. We’re not making any money on any of the glamour stuff, we can’t be found. We hired some people to do SEO, they were failing, so we eventually pulled the plug.
Jon Schellenger: And so now what we’re going to do is we’re going to take all of the glamour shots that we have built and basically put them on things like ArtBeats, iStock and Pond5, so it’s the old saying – if you can’t beat them, join them.
Larry Jordan: Absolutely. Oh, well that’s enough to turn your hair grey, so I can understand why you turned to something different. Is that why Cinematic Motion Pictures was born?
Jon Schellenger: Yes, we tried a fast one. We basically went from being GlamorKey to where we said, “All right, well, let’s make cinematic stock footage. We’ll kill the name GlamorKey,” because we were thinking that maybe they were confused over the overall name of GlamorKey, so we said Cinematic Stock Footage, I mean, there it is. What is it? It’s cinematic that’s stock. And plus, you know, we were moving outside of glamour, because I can tell you we learned a ton about glamour and it’s a very subjective thing, you know, so we were like, “Well, let’s put other stuff up here. Let’s put aerials of buildings and the beach and all that kind of stuff, and we’ve got to get away from the name GlamorKey,” so we started Cinematic Motion Pictures.
Larry Jordan: Anything that doesn’t involve hair and makeup, I understand.
Jon Schellenger: Exactly, so that way we can flood it with everything else and just see if that got it to go, and it just didn’t go. So eventually I had the name Cinematic Motion Pictures. I went ahead and said, “Ok, let’s just launch that as a company, let’s just forget this and go into doing,” you know, I’ve been doing video and film now for almost, now, going on 28 years and I said, “Let’s just go into doing, you know, commercials, indie films and corporate videos and let’s just see where that goes,” and so far it’s been fantastic.
Larry Jordan: So when are we going to see Cinematic Motion Pictures launch?
Jon Schellenger: Yes, right now we have a website that is under construction. It was up a while back but we pulled it back down because we’re adding more stuff. We just shot a movie called Hollow Creek that has a special appearance with Burt Reynolds, which we were honored to have him in the movie, and so we want to be able to, you know, feature a little bit of Hollow Creek on there. Sea Viper is another movie that we did so, you know, with everything being under construction, I would say in about one month that website will be up and going.
Larry Jordan: I will put it on my calendar. But wait a minute, you said you wanted to shoot cinematic stock and you’ve already mentioned that you’re shooting two films. I’m confused here. What are you working on now?
Jon Schellenger: See, we’re trying to go where it’s most interesting, right?
Larry Jordan: I’ve seen walls with less stuff on them. Go ahead.
Jon Schellenger: Well, I could tell you something. I’ll tell you what’s very interesting about this whole thing, looking at all the stuff, if somebody came up to me and they said, “Was Glamour Key considered a failure?” I would tell them no and I’ll tell you why – because I’ve always wanted to be a DP, a director of photography and, you know, the thing about shooting glamour is that, man, you learn so quick on how to light people, how people are about soft lighting, harsh lighting, all that kind of stuff, and so applying all the knowledge of shooting glamour and lighting people and bringing that over to movies, it made me a much better lighter. I’m still learning every time I’m out on the set and I love learning from people, but that was a great, great learning tool for me to move into the world of being a DP.
Jon Schellenger: So basically we shot a movie called Sea Viper, which was a submarine movie, and for our first indie film we actually got as far as Wal-Mart, which was great, selling at Wal-Mart. Now with Hollow Creek, this one we’re really excited about because, first of all, the director, Guisela Moro, she is a fantastic director. She’s the main actress of the movie. She’s become a great friend and I think that when they see the quality of the acting, the quality of the shots and the story itself, I think this movie’s going to go really further. Much further than Sea Viper.
Larry Jordan: So what are you doing with Hollow Creek? Are you just doing production or are you doing post?
Jon Schellenger: We did everything from a little bit of pre-production. We did all the production, going up there to West Virginia and shooting the movie, and now we did all the post-production as well, so Greg… did the editing, I did the sound design and, Larry, I’ve got to tell you, I owe you a big thank you from your fantastic tutorials because, believe it or not, I did all the sound design and soundtrack.
Larry Jordan: Wow.
Jon Schellenger: And I said, ok, I’ve always had Soundtrack, I’ll always play around a little bit in there, but I never did something that had just a long list of multi tracks and this, that and the other, and so I watched a lot of your tutorials and we got huge accolades when we did our screener just last week. They were blown away by the sound, so I’m very grateful for your tutorials and what Soundtrack did for us as far as finishing the movie and the sound in time.
Larry Jordan: You’re very welcome. Thank you for the kind words. When are we going to see a trailer?
Jon Schellenger: So the trailer, we actually started cutting one today. The movie is done and we’re estimating we should have the trailer done in two weeks, so we’re moving along…
Larry Jordan: Two weeks. Ok, so we’ve got a website launching in a month, that’s on one calendar page. On the other calendar page, we’ve got a trailer in two weeks. Oh, by the way, we’re booking the director, Guisela Moro. She’s going to join us in about three weeks; after a certain individual who will go nameless gets the trailer edited and put together, then we’ll bring her on the show to talk about the movie.
Jon Schellenger: Yes, I think you’re going to really enjoy meeting her. She’s just a wonderful person and very, very talented, an amazing actress and an amazing director, so for her first film, I think people are really going to be surprised.
Larry Jordan: How did you guys ever connect?
Jon Schellenger: From one of the actors that was in the movie Sea Viper, my first movie. He told one of his friends, who is the main actor in Hollow Creek. In Florida, it’s a very small network of actors, so we all kind of know each other very well and my name got bounced around and he said, “Hey, I want to meet this guy,” and then we hit it off, Steve Darren, who’s the main actor, and I hit it off and then eventually he says, “You’ve got to meet the director, she’s amazing,” and so, sure enough, I met up with Guisela and then we hit it off and then, like, a month later we’re up in West Virginia shooting the movie. So it’s been a good ride.
Larry Jordan: Very cool, and it’s Guisela is her name, Guisela?
Jon Schellenger: Guisela Moro.
Larry Jordan: And what website can people go to learn more about the movie?
Jon Schellenger: It’s hollowcreekmovie.com.
Larry Jordan: And Jon Schellenger is the President of the Florida based production company Cinematic Motion Pictures, which we’ll hear more about in exactly four weeks. Jon, thanks for joining us today.
Jon Schellenger: Thank you Larry, I appreciate it and I appreciate everything you do for us as well.
Larry Jordan: Ah, you’re very kind. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Bye bye.
Jon Schellenger: All right, we’ll speak. Bye.
Larry Jordan: His website, by the way, is hollowcreekmovie – all one word – hollowcreekmovie.com.
Larry Jordan: You know, I love shows like this. They sort of start fast and they just keep getting faster. It’s been a wonderful day. We’ve got a couple of things going on I want to tell you about. We’ve chained one of our folks to their desk up in the office and we’re doing live tweeting during the show. One of the things that we’re all very interested in is trying to start conversations about what the show talks about and conversations about the industry and the live tweets are a way to do that. You can find out more and take a look at what we’ve been up to by visiting @dpbuzz, which is where you go on Twitter to find out more about us; and then check out the hashtag #buzzlive.
Larry Jordan: One of the things that we’re trying to do is give people a chance to either listen and join us on the live chat or have a chat via Twitter and we’re just going to see what works and give this a try and make a point to join us, Patrick would love to talk to you.
Larry Jordan: Thinking about things to talk about, I’ve got a new seminar coming up that I want to talk about. It’s called 4K and Final Cut Pro X. I was thinking as I was looking at the calendar about a month ago that Final Cut was released almost, oh, two and a half years ago and since that time it’s had nine upgrades, and I won’t rehash the trauma of the birth, but the application itself has been growing tremendously as Apple has continued to upgrade it. And, as you heard from both Ben Consoli and with Ryan Postas, both of them are keeping an eye open on high resolution media. Ben is not yet shooting it, but Ryan is, not just 4K but 6K, with the new RED Dragon camera, and we’re seeing 8K as being showcased at trade shows and NHK has announced that they’re going to be doing 8K material in some of their broadcasts over the next couple of years.
Larry Jordan: As we move into high resolutions, there’s a dramatic change in terms of things like storage and archiving, how we edit it, how we monitor it, how we import it and even how our software supports it and what I wanted to do is to have a dialogue, to create a seminar where we could bring in vendors who are making the gear and people who are editing with Final Cut with folks that want to learn more so that, rather than jump in blindly, they can actually join in and learn what the implications are as they move to higher quality, higher resolution formats.
Larry Jordan: It’s not just an issue of re-framing. Your whole hardware infrastructure has the potential to change and this is the sort of thing you want to find out more before not after you’ve had the upgrade. So that’s the whole point of this event.
Larry Jordan: It’s called 4K and Final Cut Pro X. It’s a single day, it’s a day long seminar. It’s located in Burbank, California. You can learn more by visiting larryjordan.biz/event and this gives you a list of who’s going to be participating – we’ve got storage vendors, we’ve got Blackmagic and HAA, from monitoring an ingest with G Technology, Pond5 is coming, ProMax is coming, we’ve got archiving solutions from folks like the Tolis Group and there’s a bunch of companies that are contributing – but it really is designed as a conversation to have you understand what the implications are and make the right decisions from a hardware or software infrastructure or workflow point of view so you know exactly what you’re getting into as you move into higher and higher resolutions.
Larry Jordan: There’s a lot of stuff to talk about. The website tells you more – larryjordan.biz/event – and I’d love to see you there. Ah, golly. We are wrapping up. I want to thank our guests this week. We started with Armen Kevorkian, he’s the Visual Effects Supervisor of Encore Post and one of the things I really enjoyed listening to the post guys talk about is the integration between the ideas the director has and the visualization artists have and the supervisors and how they try to keep these things all flowing together in a collaborative environment.
Larry Jordan: Ryan Postas is a Director and Cinematographer at Elevated Minds Entertainment, talking about the challenges of shooting with the RED Dragon camera and his interest in using higher resolution media, not to necessarily provide a higher resolution shot, but to give more flexibility in terms of image stabilization and in terms of re-framing shots.
Larry Jordan: Ben Consoli is the Commercial Director at BC Media Productions, the host of the Go Creative Show and it’s fun talking to a commercial director as opposed to feature film, because the deadlines are different and the production is different and Ben does a great job at describing what it takes to create high quality commercials. And Jon Schellenger, the Founder of Cinematic Motion Pictures.
Larry Jordan: There’s a lot happening at The Buzz between shows. Visit digitalproductionbuzz.com, click ‘Latest News’ for everything that’s happening in the industry. Visit with us on Twitter, @dpbuzz; talk with us at Facebook, at digitalproductionbuzz.com.
Larry Jordan: Music is provided by SmartSound. The Buzz is streamed by wehostmax.com. Our producer is Cirina Catania. My name is Larry Jordan and thanks for listening to The Buzz.
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