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Transcript: Digital Production Buzz – Nov. 7, 2013

Digital Production Buzz

November 7, 2013

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Larry Jordan

Mike Horton


Jon Tatooles, Co-Founder & Managing Director, Sound Devices LLC

Philip Hodgetts, President, Intelligent Assistance

Howard Bowler, President/Founder, HOBO Audio

Chris Stangroom, VP & Sr. Audio Engineer, HOBO Audio

Lucas Gilman, Photographer & G-Team Ambassador

Voiceover: This Digital Production Buzz is brought to you by Blackmagic Design, creators of the world’s highest quality solutions for the feature film, post production and television broadcast industries.

Voiceover: Live from Ralph’s Maytag Museum at Podcast Studio in beautiful downtown Burbank, it’s the Digital Production Buzz.

Voiceover: Production, post production, distribution. What’s really happening now and in your digital future?

Voiceover: The Buzz is live now.

Larry Jordan: And welcome to The Digital Production Buzz, the leading internet podcast covering digital video production, post production and distribution around the world. My name is Larry Jordan and joining us finally, after a 17 week vacation, the tanned and rested Mr. Mike Horton.

Mike Horton: Boy, am I rested after 17 weeks. That’s exactly what it takes. Just look at me, look. I’m smiling and rested and laying back in my chair.

Larry Jordan: And tanned and eating grapes. It’s wonderful.

Mike Horton: My voice has gone lower.

Larry Jordan: If it went much lower, it’d be doing laps. It’s good to have you back.

Mike Horton: It’s good to be back.

Larry Jordan: Today’s show looks at recording audio on location, on set and figuring out the best gear to use. We’re going to start with Jon Tatooles. He’s the Co-Founder and Managing Director of Sound Devices. He joins us to talk about creating great production sound on Breaking Bad and Sunny in Philadelphia.

Larry Jordan: Then Philip Hodgetts, the CEO of Intelligent Assistance, stops by to share his thoughts on ways to improve audio and video logging during production. More importantly, he’s going to explain why it’s so necessary.

Larry Jordan: Howard Bowler is the Founder and President and Chris Stangroom is the VP and Senior Audio Engineer at HBO Audio, which is a post house based in New York City. Both join us tonight to share their thoughts about fixing audio problems and creating audio environments for documentaries such as Lee Harvey Oswald: 48 Hours to Live.

Larry Jordan: And Lucas Gilman is an extreme adventure photographer who travels the world shooting some amazing photos. He visits with us tonight to talk about the gear he uses to capture the shots that he makes.

Larry Jordan: By the way, we’re offering text transcripts for each show courtesy of Now you can quickly scan or print the contents of each of Mike’s pearls of wisdom…

Mike Horton: Yes.

Larry Jordan: As well as…

Mike Horton: Including Pick Our Brains.

Larry Jordan: Which we’re going to do again tonight for the first time in, like, a century. Transcripts are located on each show page and thanks, Take 1, for making it possible.

Larry Jordan: Plus Patrick, our social media maven, is on Twitter providing live coverage of tonight’s show. Join us at the hashtag buzzlive and see what Patrick’s thoughts are as the show evolves.

Larry Jordan: Oh and, Mike, I haven’t mentioned this to you, this is brand new, we did this yesterday. We premiered the new second season of 2 Reel Guys – that’s co-hosted by Norman Hollyn and myself…

Mike Horton: I know. I didn’t get the PR.

Larry Jordan: I’ve got to speak to my marketing person, because the press release went out. It was read by…

Mike Horton: I get all the other PRs, I didn’t get that PR.

Larry Jordan: Well, it was read by seven people. I think we should have a huge crowd by now. Anyway, everything you want to know about film making except technology is covered on We have new episodes every two weeks. That’s

Mike Horton: And, by the way, the 2 Reel Guys will appear in person at the next LAFCPUG meeting on November 20th. Go to, register and meet them in person.

Larry Jordan: We are doing a launch of our worldwide promotional tour to introduce the new website to people so, Mike, thank you for inviting us and we are looking forward to a kick off event at LAFCPUG next week. Remember to visit with us on…

Mike Horton: Two weeks.

Larry Jordan: Is it two weeks?

Mike Horton: Well, it’s almost two weeks.

Larry Jordan: Don’t scare me.

Mike Horton: Two weeks.

Larry Jordan: Visit with us at Facebook, at; we’re on Twitter on @dpbuzz, and subscribe to our weekly show newsletter, which gets updated all the time, at We’re going to be back talking about sound devices, production sound, great listening sound and Jon Tatooles, right after this.

Larry Jordan: Blackmagic Design announced the new Ultra Studio 4K with Thunderbolt 2 technology. This new video recorder features a machined aluminum front panel with an integrated color LCD plus easy to use control buttons. It fits perfectly on a table or in a rack. The rear panel includes virtually every type of video and audio connection that exists, from standard def all the way to 4K and, when it come to speed, it features the incredible 20 gigabytes per second of Thunderbolt 2, so it has the bandwidth to work with the highest quality video and frame rates. It can instantly switch between SD, HD and 4K and supports a huge variety of formats. And, of course, it integrates perfectly with Da Vinci Resolve 10, which was released today. Best of all, it’s only $995. Visit That’s

Larry Jordan: Sound Devices manufactures high quality audio field recorders and mixers. Recently, they entered the video side of the industry with the launch of Pix, a new line of high performance video recorders. Jon Tatooles is a Co-Founder and the Managing Director of Sound Devices.  Welcome, Jon.

Jon Tatooles: Welcome. Thank you.

Larry Jordan: So what is Sound Devices and why did you found it and when did you found it and give us the background.

Jon Tatooles: Well, me and my business partner worked for a company called Shure, I think you’re familiar with them.

Mike Horton: Sure.

Larry Jordan: Oh yes.

Mike Horton: Oh, sure.

Larry Jordan: I love their microphones.

Jon Tatooles: Wonderful company with great products and we were there for about ten years and we had experience in their production sound applications and developing products for production sound, as well as for broadcast and what we saw was that, as Shure’s business was moving into installed sound, the broadcast application was a world that didn’t make sense for them to pursue and spend a whole lot of time and energy – their microphones weren’t a complement to it.

Jon Tatooles: But for us, it was a time that we left and it just made sense in our lives to start a business and where we focused initially was in broadcast and we talked with customers who were doing field production and it’s a very small little world, a small little nichey world, where a new company can come in and build a relationship with their customers and find out exactly what they need and that’s what we did.

Jon Tatooles: So over the years, we’ve developed a relationship with customers and that relationship really manifests in the products that we have and what you see in our product offering right now is a result of conversations with customers over the last 15 years.

Larry Jordan: Well, your gear is used round the world. What are some of the more challenging shows that are using your technology?

Jon Tatooles: You know, it seems like all of these shows are becoming challenging. The reality is that – and reality is an opportune word there because shows are moving into reality style production. Whether it’s a true competition reality show or even drama or feature, the style of production is changing.

Larry Jordan: Now, what does that mean, when they’re moving into reality production?

Jon Tatooles: Well, historically, we had one track to deal with. We were recording to tape and then came along multi-track and multi-track was two tracks and we would have booms on one track and we would put Lavs on the other. We’d have our mixed track on one track and we would have any other important iso on the other track.

Jon Tatooles: Now, as we’ve moved forward, technology now offers this but the needs of production, and what’s happening on the set is also driving this, we need to multi-track and producers recognize this and they’re calling out a requirement for multi-track for audio.

Larry Jordan: Now, what does multi-track mean to you? You just defined it as two track. Does it mean there’s now more than two tracks?

Jon Tatooles: Certainly. You know, what we see is the same thing that happened with music production, where now you’ve got tools that are cost effective and people can record at home and do individual tracks of every instrument and every specific piece of their instrument. That same analogy is happening on the set, where every talent, every actor, every moving or sound generating object on set has its own track, so that when you come back into post you can remix that and build a new mix because there are so many things moving around, especially in an unscripted dialogue-driven show where you are attempting to build a mix. That mix may be great, but you may miss somebody and having that iso recording, that individual track recording, is a great tool to go back in so that you can remix the show if necessary.

Mike Horton: Remember in the old days, Larry, when you could not have overlapping dialogue? Well, because of him, you can, so thank you. And it drives editors crazy.

Larry Jordan: Well, I still remember trying to cover four people talking with a single boom, so I am completely just in awe of what we can do now. By the way, Jon, what’s the story behind your Emmy nomination?

Jon Tatooles: Well, the Emmy nomination is our customers and that specific Emmy is Darrell Frank in Breaking Bad and they’ve been recognized for doing great work. We’re the gear guys. We’re the toolmakers and our customers are the ones that are really making the art, so oftentimes our customers are driving us to do great tools, but really it’s through them. They’re the ones that are being recognized and doing great stuff.

Larry Jordan: Well, in addition to trying to capture everything that makes sound on the set, which strikes me as about a 251 track recording device, how has on set, on production sound changed over the last ten years? Is it just more mics feeding into a single recorder or have there been other technological changes as well?

Jon Tatooles: Well, that’s part of it. I mean, one of the things that’s a big change is how many cameras are on set, and because of how many cameras are on set, that’s changing how we need to cover sound. So for instance, in a single camera environment, you might shoot a wide establishing shot and then you’re going to come in, you’re going to do your cutaways, you’re going to do your reverse angles, but the nice thing in that single camera environment is you can have a boom, you can get in there with a boom and get close enough so that you can use that boom track for much of your audio.

Jon Tatooles: Now, with the speed of production and with the motivation to use multiple cameras, you know, the classic wide and tight, where they’re shooting wide establishing shots while they’re simultaneously doing the individual cutaway shots with a second, third, maybe even fourth camera, that’s the new norm in production. Whether it’s feature, whether it’s drama, whether it’s a reality style production, these additional cameras mean that that boom oftentimes has to be fairly distant from the sound source, so that necessitates Lavs – Lavalier microphones – being put on the subjects.

Larry Jordan: Which opens up the whole issue of clothing rustling and that makes your clean up problems a lot worse, doesn’t it?

Jon Tatooles: That’s part of it and you certainly have to bring somebody up and down and mix them because of that. That’s one element of it. Now what we’re doing is recording this multi-track signal, so we’re recording each of the individual isos, and we’re also recording the mix. So this is a lot of demands on a production sound mixer, so not only are they choosing the microphone and placing the microphone and setting up gain structures and all of that, but they have all of these additional iso tracks and, because they’re generating so much material now, because every individual track may be its own file or may be part of a polyphonic file, this is a ton of material, this is a ton of data, and so putting a method around this data, because once you’re done shooting, now you’ve got to go and you’ve got to put some organization around this and that’s where metadata comes in.

Larry Jordan: Hold that thought, because I want to talk about metadata in just a second, but we have a live chat going on and Grant is writing in asking why is production moving to reality production? Is it because of costs or because they don’t have time to plan? I mean, what’s the driving force here?

Jon Tatooles: You know, that’s a great question. I think that there are still productions that are the classic single camera cinematic approach to shows, but I think a lot of shows recognize that they want to speed up from production to air and they simply need to generate a lot of material in order to do that, and they can because we have the tools to do that. So in a film workflow where, you know, drama was shooting on film, you were conscious of the cost of what that material is. Now you have productions literally starting at 9am, hitting record and going all day long and stopping at 9pm, when they hit stop, and they’re recording continuously – you’re generating all of this material – and this is happening across the board, whether it’s drama, scripted, unscripted. We’re seeing a lot of this style of production and many ensemble types of productions.

Jon Tatooles: For instance, Ronan Hill, who’s the production sound mixer on a show called Game of Thrones, he uses one of our production recorders, the 788, and he keeps saying to me that he’s now linking two 788s for up to 16 channels of audio IO. You know, he’s looking for more and more because his production is demanding, there are so many speaking parts, that he wants to iso everything, and he needs to. So really it’s across the board. Every type of production is moving more towards this.

Larry Jordan: You were talking about the fact that we now need to start to wrap all this audio information in metadata. Why is metadata so important?

Jon Tatooles: Well, not only are we generating a ton of data, so the audio data itself is a huge blob of information and to wade through this, like we historically did, which was scrubbing tape back and forth, you know, in the old days, when there’s a single track and your shooting ratio is quite low because you’re not shooting that much material and every shot is corresponding to one particular audio track, now we’ve got one shot that may correspond to 32 tracks wide of audio.

Jon Tatooles: So what metadata is is that non-audio information, it may contain scene, take, track name, notes – so oftentimes a sound mixer will enter, you know, if an airplane flew by and they can enter that right into the sound file – and that note is going to appear and go all the way through to post. The track name is essential in many productions, especially in competition reality style productions where they’re moving from mic to mic or they’re moving from set to set and you need to follow that person.

Jon Tatooles: So within the sound file, you’ve got this additional information that can be used to manage and assist and, you know, the assistant editor can build and do your audio sync and allow the editor to be more effective.

Larry Jordan: In the few minutes that we’ve got left, talk about how your gear’s being used in Breaking Bad. Is it just multi-channel recording? Or are there additional challenges as well?

Jon Tatooles: You know, that show, Darrell Frank was on that show and, you know, a very successful show. That’s a very typical type of drama environment where the 788P, which is our field recorder, is quite common in that. It’s an eight channel recorder and there’s a lot of wireless used on it, but there’s also boom used on it, and it’s a typical three man sound crew, so you’ve got mixer, boom and utility, and they approach it like many other drama productions, where they’re putting Lavs on everybody who’s on set and are trying to get the boom in as much as they can.

Jon Tatooles: So really, that’s the challenge, is you really want to use the boom. The boom sounds wonderful and it’s going to sound more natural if you can have it in a good place. But with the reality of having so many cameras and trying to shoot simultaneous angles, you still need the Lavs.

Larry Jordan: Well, how about another one your gear is used on, which is Sunny in Philadelphia.

Jon Tatooles: Yes, George Flores. He’s on this show and this is another multiple talking part kind of show and George uses our 664, which is one of our newer field mixers, and he uses that with the CL6, which is our input expander, so he can have level control of up to 12 inputs. He too uses a lot of wireless. He’s got, most of the time, one boom, sometimes two booms and, depending on the show or the scene, he can get a third boom in there, so he typically has a three person crew.

Jon Tatooles: One of the things that’s unique about his set up is that he has all of his sound kit in a baby buggy. You know, he goes down to the department store and buys a baby buggy pretty much every season and it’s compact, it fits through a doorway, it’s easy to maneuver and if it gets destroyed, it’s low cost to replace, so it’s kind of a unique thing and it also fits well with the kind of funky nature of the show, which is quite fun.

Larry Jordan: And, Jon, where can people go on the web to learn more about the gear that you make?

Jon Tatooles: Our products and information and tech specs and all that is at

Larry Jordan: That’s all one word,, and Jon Tatooles is the Co-Founder and the Managing Director of Sound Devices.  Jon, thanks for joining us today.

Jon Tatooles: Thank you, Larry. Thank you, Mike.

Mike Horton: Thanks, Jon.

Larry Jordan: Bye bye.

Larry Jordan: Philip Hodgetts is the CEO of Intelligent Assistance and involved in the technology of virtually every area of digital video. He’s also a regular contributor to The Buzz, because he explains technology in words that both Mike and I can understand. As always, welcome, Philip.

Philip Hodgetts: Thank you.

Mike Horton: I still don’t understand it. Go ahead, Philip, give it your best try.

Larry Jordan: We make allowances. Philip, you were listening to the Jon Tatooles interview. He was talking about the fact that, with so many tracks of audio being recorded on set at one time, metadata becomes essential to be able to keep track of who was saying what on what particular track or when the airplane was flying over. What are your thoughts on the importance of metadata and logging on set?

Philip Hodgetts: Well, what a nightmare he described. Dozens of cameras and dozens of audio channels and if you’ve got to go back over all that once you get it into your editing system, then you’re looking at hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of material and of work just to find out what you’ve actually got, whereas if you log it on the set – and we have seen a lot of really good metadata coming from the audio guys, as a matter of fact – then the logging is done. You do it once and it takes no longer than real time, because that’s a fairly fixed constant in our life, and you save that two, three or four times real time it takes to go over that material in post production.

Philip Hodgetts: You know, one of the wonderful things that we’ve been seeing for the audio guys is that they are labeling their tracks in the recorders, that they are putting in really good identifiable information which every NLE in the world currently ignores. Yay.

Larry Jordan: But is there time on set to do that kind of logging? I mean, it seems like there’s so much chaos going on. How can an audio guy even spend the time to put in metadata?

Philip Hodgetts: Ah, well, it depends on which audio guy we’re talking about. If you’re the boom operator, hell no. But if you’re in the video village and you’re monitoring, you probably aren’t quite as frantic as other people and you may have time to enter at least the audio log information, these track names. Now, that goes into the audio file in a nice little bundle, and here’s some jargon for you, called an iXML bit. Part of the actual .wav file is in .xml format, of course, inside the .wav file and that defines all this track information and it’s Sync-N-Link 10, our product, that will actually read that and put it into rolled and into track names inside Final Cut Pro X.

Larry Jordan: Well, now, one of the challenges that we’ve got is that creating metadata is often just painful. How can we decrease the pain of adding metadata? Or is it something we just have to agree is just going to be agony?

Philip Hodgetts: I think it’s always agonizing. I mean, if you leave it ‘til you come into post production, then it always takes three to four times real time, so you’re looking at the cost of an assistant to do that, or an editor, heaven forbid. Whereas if you’re doing it on set, we can probably allocate the logging role, if we make it easy enough, to somebody who is, shall we say, a less skilled or less highly paid individual or somebody who may not be, like a production assistant, should be writing notes now. They could be entering that as metadata instead of just writing paper notes, which may or may not ever get to an editor.

Philip Hodgetts: I mean, it’s no secret that that’s something that we’ve been challenged with at Intelligent Assistance and are trying to deal with with Lumberjack, so that we do the logging as the shoot goes along. And yes, you do need somebody pretty much to track each area where cameras are working, so if they’re working in different places, you need to track different actions. But you can track multiple cameras with one logging person, if they’re facing the same general direction.

Mike Horton: Are script supervisors doing any of this now? They didn’t before, but I wonder if they do any of it now.

Philip Hodgetts: Absolutely. There’s a great script supervisor’s tool called Easy Scott. I don’t know what the derivation of the name is, but they are collecting all this information electronically, the sort of things that a script supervisor wants, which generally are focused more towards narrative, which has got a very good set of metadata that we understand, like scene, shot, take. That metadata is fairly straightforward because that ties back to the script. It’s in the reality and documentary areas that Jon was talking about that there is a problem because the metadata is much more free form, people coming and going, actions happening that we didn’t necessarily know were going to be happening…

Mike Horton: I can’t think of any broadcast television show in a one hour format or longer that does not use multiple cameras and multiple microphones. It just isn’t done any more, there is no single camera. There is no master single single over the shoulder any more, it’s multiple cameras.

Philip Hodgetts: Oh, I think we’re really just enabling bad direction, to be honest. This is the whole direction of what we’re doing, shoot multiple cameras, shoot multiple microphones, let’s shoot 4K so we can reframe it. I think we’re really just enabling very poor direction, but that’s only my opinion.

Larry Jordan: Yes, we won’t go there because I agree so much with you that Mike and I would probably get into a fist fight about that. Shooting multiple cameras for 12 hours a day indicates a complete lack of planning, as far as I’m concerned. But before we go down that sinkhole, I want to talk about Lumberjack, because I’ve heard a lot about it but I don’t know what it does, and I know Lumberjack is your product. How would it be used?

Philip Hodgetts: On a reality set, what you would do is you would have somebody with an internet connected device – it doesn’t matter whether it’s a computer, a tablet, an iPad or, heaven forbid, if your fingers are tiny enough, an iPhone – and what it does is, as you’re going along, you simply tap on a key word to start the time range and you just tap on the same key word again to stop that time range.

Philip Hodgetts: So, for example, a wedding, something that everybody may understand and we just recently logged a wedding that was both a wedding wedding and also a reality TV shoot about the wedding. So we had two completely independent crews under the guidance of Cirina Catania, of course, your producer and so we would tend to have, of the two crews that were doing the reality show, we would have one person logging them and I would just follow what they were doing and say, “Oh, they’re in the garden now. They’re in the restaurant now,” and all of these time ranges where these checkboxes are simply turned on and off translate into key word ranges in Final Cut Pro X, so you are organized.

Philip Hodgetts: You’ll probably still want to look at the material, but you’ll know that material that’s shot in one location is together or the material that’s about the bride is all together, the material that’s about the groom is all together in a key word collection or, if you want to look at the restaurant beforehand, you could do a smart collection for the restaurant location and the time. So it’s a very simple system that involves just, like, literally clicking on a checkbox and clicking a checkbox off.

Larry Jordan: Well, how do you marry up the data which is captured on the tablet with the actual shoot itself?

Philip Hodgetts: Oh, well, that’s very simple.  I think, it is very inspired by Adobe’s On Location and Story, which is now, of course, a work flow they no longer support, but they used time of day to match up the camera and the log notes and that’s exactly what we do. The time of day is always going through and modern cameras capture time of day in their file and we examine that time of day in the file and we examine the time of day when the log notes were made the compare the two and put the mark up in it.

Larry Jordan: And they don’t have to be precise to the tenth of a second, they just have to be in shouting distance, it would seem.

Philip Hodgetts: That’s correct, yes, because we’re logging, we’re not actually lining up a double system sound with its matching picture, which would need to be much more accurate. But no, for logging, a couple of seconds here and there is no great deal and one of the things that I found, of course, is that I would miss things or I’d have to put in a new key word, and so one of the features we added very early was the ability to say, “Oops, I need to log Larry coming into shot, but he actually came into shot about 30 seconds ago, so I need to log that from 30 seconds ago,” so we can go back in time and start a log earlier in time.

Mike Horton: That’s cool.

Larry Jordan: Time has no basis in reality, I can see this now already.

Philip Hodgetts: To be honest, the amount of trouble that time zones have given Greg… I think it’s justification to your comment. Yes, time zones are really just a construct that is part of our reality.

Larry Jordan: Philip, for people who want to learn more about Lumberjack, where can they go to find out more about it?

Philip Hodgetts: That would be at and there’s a private beta now, so if you’re interested and you want to give it a try right as it is now, it’s not open to the public yet but I’m happy for anybody who’s got a need to try it. Send me an email and you can find my email address anywhere on the internet.

Larry Jordan: And that’s and Philip Hodgetts is the CEO of Intelligent Assistance, the folks that invented Lumberjack. Philip, thanks so much.

Philip Hodgetts: My pleasure. Thank you, Larry.

Larry Jordan: Bye bye.

Larry Jordan: HBO audio, sorry, that’s Hobo, that’s H-O-B-O, Michael, will you just wake up and have me say this correctly, for heaven’s sakes?

Mike Horton: I’m doing it in my head.

Larry Jordan: H-O-B-O, or Hobo Audio, is a New York City based audio post production company dedicated to creating an exceptional listening experience. They recently worked on the film Documented about immigration in America and Lee Harvey Oswald: 48 Hours. Howard Bowler is the President and the Founder of the company and Chris Stangroom is VP and Senior Sound Engineer, which is much harder to say than it looks. Howard, welcome, good to have you with us.

Howard Bowler: Thank you. Nice to be here, Larry, and hi to you too, Mike.

Mike Horton: Hello.

Larry Jordan: And Chris, good to have you as well.

Chris Stangroom: Thanks, guys. Glad to be here.

Larry Jordan: We’re going to start with Howard so, Chris, you can put your feet up and just relax for a second.

Chris Stangroom: I’m already doing that.

Larry Jordan: Howard, why did you decide to start Hobo Audio? And is it Hobo or H-O-B-O?

Howard Bowler: It’s Hobo. My name is Howard Bowler, so I just took the first two letters of my first and last name and formed them together to create the… There was no eureka moment to that. It just happened.

Larry Jordan: Yes, like most company names.

Howard Bowler: That’s right. I started Hobo after leaving a corporate position at a company called Grey, which is a large ad agency in New York. They had trained me quite efficiently as an audio engineer, so I was a sound designer/engineer/mixer in house and I grew into the position of running the department and realized at a certain point that they had trained me not just audio but management skills as well, and so I just took those across town, started a business and Grey became my first client.

Larry Jordan: It became your first client?

Howard Bowler: That’s right.

Mike Horton: Oh, nice client to land.

Larry Jordan: That is a nice way of them saying thank you, I tell you.

Howard Bowler: It sure was.

Larry Jordan: What kind of projects did you work on initially?

Howard Bowler: At Hobo?

Larry Jordan: Yes.

Howard Bowler: Well, the first project we took on, actually, was a Food Network show called Easy Entertaining with Michael Chiarello, which you may know. I believe he lives in Los Angeles, in that area, and a fellow named Mark Corbin, who was instrumental in designing our space, asked us if we would take the show over, which we obviously very gladly did. It turned out to be our first client; and our second client was working on Bank of America for BBDO.

Larry Jordan: All right, well, you started the company about ten years ago. Flash forward over a decade. How has the audio work changed over the last ten years?

Howard Bowler: Well, that’s a great question. One of the things that happened is you’ve got a number of things, you’ve got both technical changes that are taking place and Chris and I spoke about that earlier in the day, one of the things being that, you know, technical software has improved, hardware has improved. You know, back in the days when I was mixing, you know, you’d have frequent crashes and things like that, all sorts of technical issues would emerge.

Howard Bowler: A lot of those solutions have come in and they’ve also lowered the price as a result. Now, one of the side effects of that is, as the price of the equipment goes down, more and more people get into the business, so that means that it’s very competitive and we’ve learnt through the business landscape that you’ve got people going in house, you’ve got all sorts of ways that people try to save money etcetera, but at the end of the day it requires a great set of ears and those sets of ears are what enables people with the right tools to be able to make great mixers.

Larry Jordan: Well, that gets, I think, to the first question I want to ask Chris. Chris, do clients really care about the gear you use? Or are they simply interested in the results they can get?

Chris Stangroom: They really, you know, they like pretty things. No, no, no. You know, most of the time, they want to know that what you have is kind of at least up to date. It doesn’t necessarily need to be the newest, coolest thing. You know, if it does the job and it does the job well, I think that’s the most important thing when it comes to technology, but otherwise, you know, you’re with these clients potentially for eight to ten hours every single day and it really comes down to them wanting to hang out with you, you know?

Mike Horton: Do the newest, coolest things usually do a better job? Or do you really like some of that older stuff? I mean, people are still using Pro Tools 5.5 and loving it.

Chris Stangroom: Oh, man, absolutely. No. You know what? More and more companies are coming out with, I mean, you could talk about, you know, in the last ten years how the tools have really grown and have really evolved and then you can talk about the last five years and it’s exponentially grown beyond even any of that; and then you can even talk about the last year and see that too. So, yes, you know, the new tools are pretty awesome that are coming out. Always be careful of bugs and things like that, but yes, great tools coming out.

Larry Jordan: How do you balance deciding when to upgrade technology? When is the tipping point to say, “Yes, I’m going to go to this version”? Or are you leading edge and you’re always getting the latest thing as soon as it comes out?

Chris Stangroom: There’s a danger in getting the latest coolest thing as soon as it comes out, so we kind of watch the ground and see what’s happening and we, you know, skirt through the forums and see what’s going on there and any problems that might be poking up, but really it comes down to, you know, if your tools work then why change them? However, you know, these things are, like I said, they’re advancing so much that when they’re bringing out these new tricks and tools that are in there, at some point it’ll help your workflow, it’ll make you work a little bit faster and also hopefully free up the creativity side of things, you know?

Larry Jordan: Well, totally understand but, you know, it’s always a balance. A lot of the email that I get is, “I have to have the latest thing right when it ships,” and then they realize it doesn’t work or there’s an incompatibility with a plug-in and then they’re hosed. So my advice is to always keep your eye on the latest thing, but you don’t have to upgrade to it the day it’s released. Give it a little bit of time to settle out and see what needs to be adjusted.

Chris Stangroom: That’s right.

Howard Bowler: Absolutely.

Mike Horton: It is really hard to do, especially with some of these new features that some of this stuff comes out with. You think, “Oh God, I want that!”

Howard Bowler: I have to hold myself back all the time.

Larry Jordan: Howard, what do clients expect when they hire your company?

Howard Bowler: They expect a number of things. I mean, first and foremost, they are expecting quality results in terms of the product and so we work very hard to mix the sound as good as they can on a creative level and happy to talk about that; but the other side of it is also on a technical level. We do a lot of shows for various cable channels and the specifications for each of those networks may be very specific, so we have to make sure that whatever our output levels are, whatever the demands of that particular network are met and, as you guys probably know, when you’re going through QC, stuff can frequently get kicked back for the smallest of reasons – somebody notices a little spike in one of the meters and next thing you know they go back.

Howard Bowler: So, you know, there are the creative and technical demands that are required of us by our clients, but there are also the creature comforts. They want to have a good time. We do a lot of advertising, a lot of sound work for ad agencies, which is where I started and, as a result of that, I’m intimately familiar with what the demands are with that. These people on the agency side have an expectation when they come into the room that everything is going to be taken care of, including just the comfort level of what they are.

Howard Bowler: And as Chris just said, a very important thing that I think is overlooked by sound engineers is that, you know, there’s a lot of quality places out there and at the end of the day who do you want to spend your time with? And you could be locked in a room for quite a bit of time, so it’s very important to be engaging and understand and respond to the needs that the clients have.

Larry Jordan: Chris, documentaries are not known for having the greatest audio, at least before the mix. One of the things you worked on was a program called Documented. What were some of the audio challenges you faced with that?

Chris Stangroom: Well, you know, the thing is that Documented came out from Jose Antonio Vargas and Ann Lupo and great people, first time film makers so, you know, in documentaries you’re constantly shooting. You have new material all the time and sometimes you don’t have the crispest, cleanest production audio that they’re recording there on set, because sometimes you just need to capture that moment right then and there. Sometimes it’s on a cell phone, sometimes it’s on an actual professional sound rig, so the number one problem that we usually face with documentaries, most of the time, would be production audio and needing to lower a lot of extraneous noise that comes over on the tracks, because in this day and age I’d still say that, you know, when you’re telling a story, especially one that’s very dialogue-centric, that dialogue has to be as clear as possible and as intelligible as possible.

Mike Horton: What’s your favorite software for cleaning up audio?

Chris Stangroom: I think a lot of people would agree with me that iZotope has done an amazing job with the first RX…

Mike Horton: Well, the last one that just came out is awesome. It’s just incredible.

Chris Stangroom: Yes, yes, it’s really incredible and that is one of those tools that we upgrade pretty quickly, just because of the things that they offer. We used to use a plug-in called Unveil, which we still actually do, which is a dereverb plug-in, which really does a great job, and iZotope just put out a competitor plug-in, I think it’s called the Dereverb. Now, very original naming, obviously, but it gets the point across and that would be top of my list, you know, couldn’t live without it at this point, especially on documentaries.

Larry Jordan: Just to clarify, iZotope is I-Z-O-TO-P-E and Unveil is by Zynaptiq – Z-Y-N-A-P-T-I-Q. Chris, what software do you use for audio post? Are you a Pro Tools house or something else?

Chris Stangroom: Yes, yes, we’re Pro Tools. One of our engineers used to work on Logic, but a lot of the time you’re talking about industry standards and you’re talking about, you know, sometimes moving from one rig to the next and you need to have compatibility across it and Pro Tools has done an amazing job at maintaining that and offering, you know, the right resources and the right tools within their application and DAW to get that done.

Larry Jordan: Howard, one more technical question – with the documentary Lee Harvey Oswald: 48 Hours, Chris, what were the technical challenges with mixing that sound?

Chris Stangroom: Well, you know, a lot of the time budgets and schedules come into play. Actually, I wouldn’t even say budgets, it’s really schedules, because that’s what dictates things. So this one, the editor Mark Delforte is an incredible editor and he layers music, like, so much and it’s such a great job but, you know, with that and with the amount of sound design and sound effects that they put in, it creates a lot of things to go through in a very short amount of time.

Chris Stangroom: And so really the creative challenges and the technical challenges is making sure that, you know, music isn’t overriding everything but it really stands out when it’s supposed to, but also finding the time to go through everything and see what is necessary and what isn’t to actually tell the story in its most effective way.

Larry Jordan: Howard, what projects are you looking for in the future? And the question really is not what client or what job, but what do you see as the future of audio post as technology gets cheaper and more home brew things pop up to be competition? What are you doing to do to stand apart?

Howard Bowler: I’m sorry, say that again.

Larry Jordan: What are you going to do to separate yourself? What are you looking to do in the future? Where’s audio post headed for facilities like yourself?

Howard Bowler: Well, first of all, I noticed that you said you weren’t going to ask me the technical question which is once you’re out of audio post for six months, not at the console, you can’t answer those questions any more, it changes that quickly. So thank you for steering me to this type of question.

Larry Jordan: I was told to be careful with the questions I asked you. No, I’m just teasing. Go ahead.

Howard Bowler: Larry, you may ask whatever question you like. The fact is that we’re keenly aware of what’s going on in the industry. There are a lot of home grown studios that come into being and, you know, there are certain things that are constants throughout the industry and there are certain things that change.

Howard Bowler: When you’re talking about things that are changing, yes, things become cheaper, they become more accessible, they can move around a lot more quickly, things like that. But what in my mind does not change is both the client experience, the client engagement, the ability to understand what the needs are of the project and also the training that’s required to have a set of ears.

Howard Bowler: I don’t know if you know, but I was in the music business before I started audio post and one of the things I learned as a mixer of music was that if you are a really good mixer, a really good engineer of music, you could be put on those old Tascam four track cassette tapes and come out with a very solid sounding track and if you don’t have an experienced engineer with the greatest gear, it’s not going to sound very good.

Howard Bowler: One of the things we do as we go through and become more experienced in the business is we’re always treating it as our first day – what can we do better? What can we make sound better? What’s going to improve it? And, to me, big changes and big advances for any company is really the sum of a lot of little changes and a lot of little improvements that they take from day to day.

Mike Horton: Yes, you might have those groovy wonderful tools, but you still need some really good people behind those tools.

Howard Bowler: Exactly.

Larry Jordan: And, Howard, where can people go on the web to learn more about your company?

Howard Bowler: Well, you know, our website is That’s H-O-B-O audio.

Larry Jordan: That’s all one word, and Howard Bowler is the President and founder and Chris Stangroom is the Senior Audio Engineer. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us today.

Mike Horton: Thanks guys.

Chris Stangroom: Thank you Larry, it was great.

Howard Bowler: Thank you Larry and Mike.

Larry Jordan: Bye bye.

Larry Jordan: Lucas Gilman is an adventure and travel film maker and photographer and recently became one of the first people to use the new Mac Pro. He’s been around the world capturing images ranging from kayaking in India to back country skiing in Alaska. His clients include the National Geographic, Sports Illustrated and the New York Times. Welcome, Lucas.

Lucas Gilman: Hey, thanks for having me.

Larry Jordan: Well, thank you for taking the time out from your schedule to get near a hotel phone and chat with us. We’re very grateful. Tell us, how do you define an extreme sports photographer?

Lucas Gilman: Well, I guess it’s sort of like real estate photography – it’s all about location, location, location, so it’s all about going out and finding unique, untouched places and, you know, sharing those experiences with the world.

Larry Jordan: Well, what got you started shooting these kind of photos?

Lucas Gilman: Well, I actually went to school to be a writer originally and figured out that was way too much work so, you know, I was always the kid that likes to pick up the camera on a family vacation and from there just sort of never dreamed it could actually be a real job, but just sort of worked through the craft.

Larry Jordan: Well, give me an example of some of the shoots that you’ve done. What subjects have you covered?

Lucas Gilman: Oh, I’ve shot a lot of kayaking in the past, I recently shot the largest waterfall ever run at 189 feet, Rafael Ortiz, Red Bull athlete.

Larry Jordan: Wait, wait, wait, a 189 foot waterfall and somebody took it in a kayak?

Lucas Gilman: Yes. Kind of crazy, huh?

Larry Jordan: Take out the words kind of. Oh my gracious. Ok, keep going.

Lucas Gilman: Shot some things for Land Rover in Iceland, some surfing expeditions. You know, I like to mix it up as much as possible.

Mike Horton: But you’re putting yourself into a lot of uncomfortable situations. I’m assuming you’re not a kayaker, I’m assuming you’re not a driver of Land Rovers over rough terrain and all this other stuff. Is there anything that you won’t do?

Lucas Gilman: Well, you know, what I try to do is keep a fresh and relevant outlook in a portfolio that can speak to a lot of people, because in this day and age I think as diverse an artist as you can be, the better off you’re going to be.

Larry Jordan: What gear do you use when you’re on these shoots? How portable do you try to be or do you take a ton of stuff?

Lucas Gilman: Well, you know, it’s usually two or three bodies, really like the Nikon D4 and the Nikon D800 and specifically a few prime lenses. One of my new favorites is the Nikkor 24 1.4, and then just sort of a wide range of Nikkor lenses. As far as the back-up strategy in the field, it’s MacBook Airs generally because I’m traveling light and fast; and then I really like the new G-Technology G-Dock and ED drives which allow me to back up everything.

Larry Jordan: Now, why the G-Tech? What makes that appeal to you?

Lucas Gilman: Well, you know, back in the day I was drawn to the products in the Apple Store for the build quality and they were really the only ones putting 7200 RPM drives in, so now that I’m shooting stills and motion, it just made a lot of sense because the more time I can spend in the field creating that content, the better and more content I am able to create.

Larry Jordan: Are you your own assistant or do you take a crew?

Lucas Gilman: I usually take a small crew, at least one assistant. The athletes I work with, you know, it’s a tight team so we travel as light as possible but at the end of the day production value is high on our priority list.

Larry Jordan: Yes, traveling light doesn’t help if you can’t get the shot.

Lucas Gilman: Exactly.

Larry Jordan: How do you handle delivering the master media back? In other words, are you doing file transfers? Do you ship hard disks? Or how do you get it from Point A to Point B?

Lucas Gilman: It’s been shipping disks as of recent, just because, for instance, the Nikon D800 is a 36.2 mega pixel camera. Also shoots 1080 footage so, you know, all of a sudden, after everything’s Pro Res-ed or everything’s rendered out as a .tif, 16 bit, we’re talking lots of information. So, you know, I’ve got a stack of FedEx boxes and I’ve recently been using the Evolution series drives because they’re USB3/USB2 back compatible and, you know, pretty much anybody can get the footage and/or stills off of those.

Larry Jordan: Talk me through one of your recent shoots, about how you plan it, where you set the location, do you do scouting before you do the shoot or wing it when you’re there? Walk me through the logistics of putting something together.

Lucas Gilman: Yes, so I’ll talk about a shoot I did a couple of years ago, actually, because this one really makes the most sense. So it was a waterfall. I did a story for a men’s journal years ago on the first complete descent of the River Alseseca in Veracruz Mexico. Kind of sketchy area, there’s narcotics trafficking, there’s, you know, guys with guns in the jungle, but we found this massive waterfall, 128 feet, so a big waterfall again, and we went back four years in a row to the same waterfall until the conditions were right.

Lucas Gilman: You know, I spent a lot of time researching, a lot of time getting these shoots together and being at the right place at the right time, so that’s really why at the end of the day I’ve got to be able to trust my gear, because these things don’t happen. I can’t really ask the athletes to go back and do it again, you know, there’s not really a take two, no second chance, so you know, we spend a lot of time and effort…

Larry Jordan: When you say conditions are right, what does that mean?

Mike Horton: Yes, what does that mean?

Lucas Gilman: That means that the water levels are right, there’s no hostile natives shooting at us or trying to get… you know, and all that kind of stuff.

Mike Horton: Jeez.

Larry Jordan: Is there a particular time of day you like to shoot? A particular light you go for?

Lucas Gilman: Yes, I mean, I’m typically a sunrise or sunset type of guy. You know, I tell people, “Get up early, shoot early, have a nice lunch, you know, and go back out and do it all again in the evening,” which became problematic on a recent shoot. We were in Iceland and it’s light for about 23 hours a day.

Mike Horton: Yes.

Lucas Gilman: Then things all of a sudden turn into, you know, 20 hour days and you’re like, “Oh, got to fit some sleep in somewhere.”

Larry Jordan: What project are you heading out to next?

Lucas Gilman: Well, lots of stuff, heading to South America for a few things, some really exciting stuff. Hate to jinx it so I won’t mention it but, you know, lots of exciting things on the radar; and just continuing to shoot. The main things I shoot are skiing, kayaking, surfing and lifestyle photography.

Larry Jordan: And lifestyle means what?

Lucas Gilman: Shooting athletes in their environment, whether it’s motion or stills and just telling stories about beautiful landscapes, untouched places. I call it selling the dream, you know? When you see that image or that short clip, you want to be there.

Larry Jordan: Do you have to do much marketing or do you have more gigs than you know what to do with?

Lucas Gilman: I think the work really speaks for itself and just developing some partnerships with key outlets as well as key athletes really sort of does the marketing for you and my idea is that you’re only as good as your last project so every time I’m going out there, I’m trying to raise the bar.

Larry Jordan: For photographers who would like to follow in your footsteps, what’s the best way to get started? Is it buying gear or shooting pictures or building relationships with athletes who are not yet famous?

Lucas Gilman: Well, it really starts with passion – figuring out what really drives your photography – because a lot of times we’re out there in these really, honestly, pretty miserable conditions; you’re in the jungle, you’re getting eaten by bugs, you may be sick, you may be not feeling well but being able to persevere and be able to produce content in those situations and building those relationships with athletes that are up and coming, because at the end of the day the athletes are really what makes us film makers and photographers look good.

Larry Jordan: Wow. Where can people go on the web to learn more about you and your work?

Lucas Gilman:

Larry Jordan: That’s all one word, and the Lucas Gilman himself is the voice you’re listening to. Lucas, get some rest tonight and travel safely and thanks for joining us.

Lucas Gilman: Thank you. You guys have a great night.

Mike Horton: Thanks, guy.

Larry Jordan: Mhmm, bye bye.

Larry Jordan: Are you ready for this?

Mike Horton: Hold on. I’m just looking at his pictures. Oh my gosh.

Larry Jordan: Stop looking at his pictures, you’ve got work to do.

Mike Horton: Have you seen the kayak going down the 128… isn’t that awesome?

Larry Jordan: I don’t even want to think about it.

Mike Horton: Wouldn’t you love to do that?

Larry Jordan: No, I would not want to do that. I would want to be about a block away and have it told to me after it was over.

Mike Horton: I don’t know, Larry, I think you’d be looking pretty good doing that kind of thing.

Larry Jordan: I’ll wave as I fall screaming across the water.

Mike Horton: I’ll hold the boom. We’ll get some decent audio out of that, “Arrghh!” Ok.

Larry Jordan: We haven’t had a chance to do this in over a month, so Mike…

Mike Horton: I think it was the early ‘40s when we did this last time.

Larry Jordan: Are your pipes ready here?

Mike Horton: I’m going to give it a shot.

Larry Jordan: Ok, here we go, and it’s time for…

Mike Horton: Pick Our Brains. Hasn’t changed, it’s even got more mellower.

Larry Jordan: It just amazes me it works.

Mike Horton: The bass is working.

Larry Jordan: Oh, oh, oh, guess what.

Mike Horton: What?

Larry Jordan: Adobe shipped the 7.1 upgrade for…

Mike Horton: Yes!

Larry Jordan: …for Premier.

Mike Horton: And guess what.

Larry Jordan: What?

Mike Horton: There seems to be a bug.

Larry Jordan: Oh, tell me. Tell me more.

Mike Horton: Well, at least according to this guy, and it’s maybe not a bug. Maybe he’s just completely screwing it up.

Larry Jordan: It could be a feature.

Mike Horton: But other people have said they’re not having it. Anyway, he’s trying to import some .xmls from Final Cut 7 that originated in Final Cut X, they originated with Xto7. They open in Final Cut 7, but in Premier Pro 7.1, which is this latest upgrade, they report the file is damaged. I tried exporting the new .xml directly from FCP7, but same result. It happened on any .xmls created after or before the update. They all report back damaged, even ones that worked just fine before October 26th, when the thing came out, and other people have reported similar things.

Mike Horton: However, the guy from Adobe, Dennis Radeke, he says, “I tried and it works for me.” But other people have said, “Uh-uh, it ain’t working.”

Larry Jordan: Here’s an interesting workaround if you’ve got all the pieces, because it looks like there seems to be a problem with .xml importing.

Mike Horton: I think that’s the consensus.

Larry Jordan: So there seems to be a problem with .xml import on the 7.1, that’s the latest upgrade for Premier Pro. So what he did is he took a Final Cut X project, exported .xml, ran it through a utility called Xto7 from Intelligent Assistance, that’s Philip’s company, and that creates a Final Cut 7 compatible file. Instead of opening that file in the latest version of Creative Cloud, where there is a little bit of an issue, open that file inside CS6, the earlier version of Premier.

Mike Horton: And he did.

Larry Jordan: Save that as a project and then you can open that CS6 project inside the latest version, CC, and it works perfectly. So the difference is is you create the .xml files, .xml from Final Cut X, convert it with Xto7, open it in CS6, save it as a project and then you bypass the whole .xml import and Creative Cloud works great.

Mike Horton: Yes, and that’s exactly what he had to do.

Larry Jordan: And it works.

Mike Horton: And it worked.

Larry Jordan: Michael, you’re just amazing. You know, just amazing.

Mike Horton: It’s right here. It says exactly what he had to do. However, Dennis Radeke says it’s working for him, so others could be working.

Larry Jordan: Nobody would purposefully ship a bad product. Adobe would not, Apple would not.

Mike Horton: And any upgrade there is going to break something and fix something and that’s just the way it is, folks.

Larry Jordan: And they’ll fix it in the next dot upgrade. That’s one of the reasons…

Mike Horton: Well, the nice thing about this whole CC thing, they could fix it by tomorrow if it is, indeed, a bug.

Larry Jordan: Remember what Chris was saying earlier when he said you wait a little bit to see what shakes out? This is why.

Mike Horton: Have you done Mavericks yet? Have you upgraded? Because I haven’t, because there are too many incompatibilities.

Larry Jordan: I have one system that’s running Mavericks right now and, so far, it’s working great.

Mike Horton: Ok.

Larry Jordan: I like it a lot.

Mike Horton: Yes, it seems to have some really cool stuff in it like maps. Something else, I don’t know. I don’t know what the reason is for me to upgrade. Extra memory performance and… things.

Larry Jordan: But one thing I have seen is it’s a lot faster.

Mike Horton: Really?

Larry Jordan: I took an iMac and put more RAM in it and moved to Mavericks and the thing looks like I just goosed the whole processor.

Mike Horton: Well, you’ve got one of those big 27 inch iMacs, right?

Larry Jordan: Yes, but that isn’t the one I upgraded. I upgraded a 2010 iMac and I was really blown away by how smooth that upgrade went and how quick the computer is. I was not expecting quite the performance that I got.

Mike Horton: I’ll tell you one thing – don’t download the new iWork applications, the pages and keynote. They’re missing everything. It’s gone back to, like, .1, pages especially. And then Apple finally said, “Well, we’re going to put that stuff back in in the next six months or something like that,” so stay with your own iWork right now and don’t upgrade.

Larry Jordan: There is a difference. I use Keynote. I’ve been playing with Keynote a little bit in the…

Mike Horton: The newest one?

Larry Jordan: Yes, and…

Mike Horton: I don’t know what’s missing in that, but something is.

Larry Jordan: …aside from the fact that it doesn’t have two column text display, the rest of it seems to be pretty good.

Mike Horton: Ok. Some guy posted a column that was 14 feet long of things that are gone.

Larry Jordan: Yes, that would not be good.

Mike Horton: Oh, we’re running out of time. You have to, like, do the ending thing.

Larry Jordan: Yes we are. Oh, by the way…

Mike Horton: What?

Larry Jordan: …tell me about what’s happening at LAFCPUG next week. Two weeks.

Mike Horton: Oh yes, in two weeks, November 20th. That’s a week before Thanksgiving.

Larry Jordan: Ok.

Mike Horton: The legendary Larry Jordan and Norman Hollyn, the 2 Reel Guys – that’s R-E-E-L – isn’t that just, that’s just, I love that name. Anyway, they’re going to be there talking about everything. Everything you need to know about editing without talking tech.

Larry Jordan: And besides Norman and me, who’s the second banana?

Mike Horton: And Al Mooney’s going to come down from Adobe, going to be talking about the .xml bug in 7.1.

Larry Jordan: We will ask him. Al Mooney is the Senior Product Manager for Premier.

Mike Horton: It’s going to be a great show.

Larry Jordan: It’s going to be great, in two weeks. By the way, I want to thank our guests for this week: Jon Tatooles, the Co-Founder and Managing Director of Sound Devices; Philip Hodgetts, the CEO of Intelligent Assistance; Howard Bowler, the Founder and President of Hobo Audio and Chris Stangroom, their Senior Audio Engineer; and Lucas Gilman, death defying adventure photographer.

Larry Jordan: There’s a lot happening at The Buzz between shows. Visit, click on ‘Latest News’ and see what’s happening in our industry. Music on The Buzz is provided by Smart Sound. The Buzz is streamed by and our producer, the ever beautiful Cirina Catania; audio is by Adrian Price. Our co-host, Mike Horton. My name is Larry Jordan and thanks for listening to The Digital Production Buzz.

Voiceover: This Digital Production Buzz was brought to you by Blackmagic Design, creators of the world’s highest quality solutions for the feature film, post production and television broadcast industries.


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