Digital Production Buzz
January 2, 2014
[Transcripts provided by Take1.tv]
Philip Hodgetts, President, Intelligent Assistance
Michael Kammes, Director, Technology & Marketing, Key Code Media
Jerome Courshon, Film Distribution Expert, Distribution LA
Michele Yamazaki, VP of Marketing, Toolfarm
Ned Soltz, Contributing Editor, Digital Video Magazine
Jonathan Handel, Entertainment Attorney, Troy Gould
Jessica Sitomer, President, The Greenlight Coach
Voiceover: This Digital Production Buzz is brought to you by Blackmagic Design, creators of the world’s highest quality solutions for the feature film, post production and television broadcast industries.
Voiceover: Live from Ralph’s Maytag Museum at Podcast Studio in beautiful downtown Burbank, it’s the Digital Production Buzz.
Voiceover: Production, post production, distribution. What’s really happening now and in your digital future?
Voiceover: The Buzz is live now.
Larry Jordan: And welcome to The Digital Production Buzz and Happy New Year, everybody, my name is Larry Jordan. We are the leading internet podcast covering digital video production, post production and distribution around the world. Mike Horton, our ever handsome and affable co-host has this week off.
Larry Jordan: Last week, we took a look back at key trends and developments for 2013 and this week we’re going to take the opposite view, look forward to 2014 to discover the trends that’ll be significant in the coming year and we’ve got our staff of regulars to talk with.
Larry Jordan: We’re going to start with Philip Hodgetts, President of Intelligent Assistance, with an overview of the major technology trends that he expects to see this year. Then Philip is joined by Michael Kammes, the Director of Technology and Marketing for Key Code Media on what’s happening in the world of post production.
Larry Jordan: Film distribution expert Jerome Courshon stops by with his thoughts on distribution trends that we can capitalize to make money for our own pictures. Then Michele Yamazaki, Director of Marketing for Toolfarm and a certified plug-in-ologist, looks at the world of plug-ins and utilities. Michele is joined by Ned Soltz, Contributing Editor for Digital Video Magazine, with a look at upcoming production gear and other cool toys that we can look to spend our money on in the coming 12 months.
Larry Jordan: Jonathan Handel, entertainment labor reporter for the Hollywood Reporter, is next with a look both at upcoming guild negotiations, as well as larger labor issues that are coming later in the new year.
Larry Jordan: Finally, we wrap up with Jessica Sitomer, the President of The Greenlight Coach, on employment trends we should watch as we’re planning the next step in our career growth.
Larry Jordan: I love these year end shows, both last week as we looked back on the previous year, and this week as we look forward to the next year, because it helps all of us get a much better understanding of the forces and trends that were driving our industry and we want to see throughout the year whether our predictions come true.
Larry Jordan: By the way, thinking of cool new things, we’re offering text transcripts for each show, courtesy of Take1.tv. Now you can quickly scan or print the contents of every show, as well as listen to it. Transcripts are located on every show page and thanks Take1.tv for making these transcripts possible.
Larry Jordan: Also, as a reminder, I’m going to be attending the Storage Visions conference this weekend at the Riviera Hotel and Conference Center in Las Vegas, Nevada. This annual event covers the latest in storage technology. This is my third year hosting the kick-off panel. Our session is called Capturing the Act of Creation: Looking for Storage for High Resolution Content, Capture and Production. If you’re attending CES and you’re interested in storage, I highly recommend this conference. Visit www.storagevisions.com to learn more.
Larry Jordan: Be sure to visit us on Facebook, at digitalproductionbuzz.com. We’re doing a live Twitter and Facebook feed this evening, thanks to Patrick Saxon, who’s manning the keyboard. Join the conversation on our live chat or join the conversation on Twitter and Facebook. And if you are a Twitter person, visit us on Twitter @dpbuzz and subscribe to our weekly show newsletter at digitalproductionbuzz.com for all the latest news on both our show and the industry. We’re going to kick off our look forward to the year 2014 with Philip Hodgetts right after this.
Larry Jordan: The latest version of Da Vinci Resolve 10 is now shipping from Blackmagic Design. This new version includes innovative tools to speed on-set color grading, support for open effects plug-ins and simplified integration of Final Cut Pro, Avid and Premier Pro projects, allowing timelines to be easily moved in and out of Resolve. You can even tweak your edits inside Resolve without wasting time switching back to your editing software just to make a simple change.
Larry Jordan: New editing features include full multi-track editing with 16 channels of audio per clip and unlimited video and audio tracks in the timeline. Da Vinci Resolve 10 can finish online from the original camera files for dramatically better quality. The latest version of Resolve 10 is a free upgrade to all Resolve users and, if you’re looking for ways to make your pictures look great, download the free version of Da Vinci Resolve 10 from blackmagicdesign.com. That’s blackmagicdesign.com.
Larry Jordan: Philip Hodgetts is the CEO of Intelligent Assistance and involved in the technology of virtually every area of digital video. He’s also a regular contributor to The Buzz with an incredible eye on the latest in technology. As always, Philip, welcome back.
Philip Hodgetts: Thank you.
Larry Jordan: Last week, we talked about the major technology trends for 2013. What are you predicting to be the major highlights for 2014?
Philip Hodgetts: Well, two somewhat related hardware issues and one about metadata or so. I was thinking that, of course, one of the trends that we’ve seen towards the end of last year and into this year is the rise of the dual GPU. It has been stagnant for a while, CPU, we can add more cores, but then you have to slow them down a little bit and it’s got to be written to multi-core and Moore’s law is not working with CPUs any more, we’re not getting this doubling in power in the CPU every 18 months, but we are seeing this over on the GPU side, with the GPU not used for graphics as we normally expect.
Philip Hodgetts: The GPU has a co-processor. We’ve talked a little bit about this before on The Buzz, but the way that we use that second processor is for OpenCL – that’s regular computer language stuff that would otherwise run on a CPU, but we run it on the GPU where we have lots of increase in power.
Larry Jordan: But Philip, we’ve had two and more graphics cards in computers. That option’s been with us for a long time. What makes this special?
Philip Hodgetts: We’ve had the cards, but we’ve only likely been using them for GPU and we’ve been sharing some OpenCL and OpenGL use as well on the graphics card. But really, we’re seeing a move where the power of the GPU is used not for graphics processing but for things like encoding, as you found in your review of the new compressor. That’s essentially OpenCL running on the GPU that’s providing that immense power boost that you’re seeing; and we’re going to see a lot more of this. What’s really changed is, although we’ve have had laptops with discrete and built-in graphics, you could only use one at a time. Well, now we’ve got the operating system support for multiple GPUs at the same time, as we have had in Winexe for a long time and some configurations of Windows, so I think this is a mega trend that the GPU is going to provide a lot more power and, as we get software optimized for it, we’ll see a lot more of that.
Philip Hodgetts: That leads to the second point, which is power has become irrelevant. Is this computer powerful enough to do what I want it to do? Well, pretty much whatever you buy today is going to do you fine for multiple streams of full HD and even up into Ultra HD, the 4K stuff. I mean, we’re really seeing that the processing power we have for a very reasonable cost is enough. At some point we get to enough that it stops being the most important question.
Larry Jordan: Well, let me just drive that home, because I get that in an email on an almost hourly basis. Are you saying that virtually all currently shipping computers are fast enough to edit HD video?
Philip Hodgetts: Yes, I am saying that pretty much every, well yes, every currently shipping computer that’s actually a desktop is suitable for editing HD video.
Larry Jordan: So people don’t have to sweat rivets over deciding if they need something which is 3.2 or 3.3 gigahertz in speed?
Philip Hodgetts: I doubt that most normal human beings would even notice, and one of the things that we’re seeing is that the way we benchmark things, the actual benchmarks that we’ve seen come out, are really not indicative of the way a system behaves these days with the mixture of OpenCL and GPU power and the multi-cored CPUs. We’re just not prepared to benchmark. I think the best benchmark is actually using it and seeing what you can do with it, with this additional power. That’s the best benchmark.
Larry Jordan: So let’s shift gears and move out of hardware for a second, take a look at software. Is this going to be the year of metadata?
Philip Hodgetts: Well, you know I’m going to say yes, of course, and every year from now until it is.
Larry Jordan: Yes, but metadata by itself is about the most boring subject, with the possible exception of codecs, and the idea is asset management systems have got to step up and become more mainstream to help us manage all this stuff. Is this the year that asset managements are going to come out of the woodwork and become available for most of us?
Philip Hodgetts: The real tension with an asset management system is it’s a combination of purchasing an actual piece of software or a system that works, an online subscription, and the hardware to run it on, but then there are two things. When you’ve got to enter a lot of data that already exists with all the assets that you already have and you have to commit to ongoing entering of that metadata around these assets, and until we really make those things simpler, I don’t know how many people are going to put the effort into an asset management system.
Philip Hodgetts: Knowing full well that when you do put the effort into an asset management system, you get the return of being able to find any piece of media you’ve ever created any time, knowing where it is and how it’s been used. Now, that’s useful for many people but until it’s easy enough to actually deal with, I don’t think we’re going to see widespread adoption of asset management systems and I think that’s a pity.
Larry Jordan: Well, I want to bring Michael Kammes on. Michael is the Director of Technology and Marketing for Key Code Media and has a love of asset management systems. Michael, are you there?
Michael Kammes: Indeed I am, gentlemen.
Larry Jordan: So what do you think? Is asset management relegated to a corner? Or are we going to be able to start to keep track? Because we’re drowning in media right now.
Michael Kammes: Completely, we’re drowning in Firewire drives, we’re drowning in Legacy USB drives and I think it’s going to become a necessary evil. It’s not sexy, it’s not a lot of fun, but for our sanity and moving forward, we’re going to need it to track down all these assets that we just can’t bear to delete.
Philip Hodgetts: Yes but, Michael, we all know it’s good for us, like exercise is good for us, but most people don’t.
Michael Kammes: No, you’re completely right. However, I think there’s going to be a time when editors’ jobs are on the line, when they have to put together a package using footage that was on a Firewire drive from three years ago and they’re not going to be able to hit their deadline and I think that facilities are going to come to a point where they realize, “You know what? We can save time and manpower by having this available, rather than paying for the labor of having to search through all these drives.”
Philip Hodgetts: So pay now or pay later.
Larry Jordan: Philip, what’s your thought on software trends? I want to get you and Michael to talk about that for a second.
Philip Hodgetts: Well, I mean, I think in overall trends of software, we’ll get evermore powerful software for ever decreasing amounts of money on our side and the software people will go home and starve and their children will be in rags. Apart from that, everyone else will get terrific value out of all this new and inexpensive software.
Philip Hodgetts: In meta trends, though, still talking a little bit about asset management, but I do see trends of putting post back onto the set, so acquiring metadata, delivering dailies onto the set, delivering dailies onto iPads, logging systems that work in real time on location like Prelude and Lumberjack and associated tools. There is a big trend to moving post production closer and closer to the actual production point and I think that’s where we’ll see movement this year, in using metadata to move and improve the experience of using media.
Larry Jordan: Philip, where can people go to keep track of you and your thoughts?
Larry Jordan: That’s philiphodgetts.com and the Philip himself joining us tonight. Philip, thanks for being here.
Philip Hodgetts: Thank you very much. Happy New Year.
Larry Jordan: And same to you. Michael, what do you think about the comments Philip just made?
Michael Kammes: Well, I think the beginning part of it kind of danced around what I think we’ve all been frustrated with over the past couple of years, which is that we have all these faster machines but we’re not seeing that increase in speed that we were promised, and I think that boils down to the fact that there are many software packages out there and, yes, I’m looking at you Adobe and Avid, that are just not taking advantage of the available horsepower.
Michael Kammes: I know I’ll probably get crucified for this, but when you look at the performance of Final Cut 10 versus Final Cut 7 or Final Cut 10 versus Premier or Avid, you’ll see that you’re capable of doing a lot more in real time with the software running on the same hardware and I think that’s kind of a smoking gun, that there has to be some fundamental change in how the software’s written to take advantage of this hardware.
Larry Jordan: Well, I think this is a question I want to ask Ned Soltz, in that stuff is changing so quickly, we don’t even have time to explore how to get the most out of it. We’re barely trying to keep up with it as it is. It sounds to me like we’re got to come up with a different way of doing user interfaces to allow us to get deeper into the program and take advantage of it. Is that a true statement or am I misstating it?
Michael Kammes: No, I don’t think you’re misstating it at all. I think that’s going to be a constant point of contention because there are dyed in the wool editors that prefer it this way and there are kids who are just learning to use a computer who are going to learn in a different way, hence the Final Cut 10 interface, so I think that’s going to be a constant point of contention and it’s just going to be based on your age and experience level.
Larry Jordan: So what other hardware trends are you seeing that you’ve got your eye on for 2014?
Michael Kammes: Well, we kind of talked about asset management a few minutes ago and that’s software; but in order to manage all of these assets, you need to have storage and, again, it’s not sexy, it’s not fun but having what we call tier two storage, which is kind of your secondary non-fast storage, the storage that you have to keep assets that you may need somewhere down the road but you need to have them rated, you need to have them protected.
Larry Jordan: That’s called near line storage, right? So it’s almost online, so you can almost get access to it instantly, a bit like LTO tape, for instance, so we’re backing up to an optical disk.
Michael Kammes: That’s completely correct and LTO is a great alternative to buying a RAID or buying some kind of shared storage solution, because it’s a lot less expensive per tape. The restore time is a little bit slower, but it is a lot less expensive to store your assets to find later.
Larry Jordan: But the problem I’ve got with LTO, and I’ve been beating up on the LTO vendors about this for the last couple of years, is the entry level price for independent producers. They’re looking to spend five to eight thousand dollars to be able to get an LTO system and are we seeing any forces that are driving those prices down?
Michael Kammes: No. Unfortunately, that’s the reality of it. I’m drawing a blank on the name of a company in Indiana that’s been doing something like this. Not Shotput, but I think they make Shotput, and they have a relatively inexpensive software solution provided you buy the hardware, but it’s still a couple of thousand dollar solution so it really isn’t a sub-$1,000 solution as of yet.
Larry Jordan: Ok. Wearing your software hat, what’s happening in the world of editing and all the stuff related to editing that you’re keeping your eye on for this year?
Michael Kammes: Well, believe it or not, there’s not a heck of a lot changing. Adobe’s actually getting better and better. If we kind of expand from the one person sitting in front of a screen to more of distributed editing, we’re looking at something we talked about last week on The Buzz, which was remote collaboration. That’s using Adobe Anywhere to have multiple editors logged into one central storage location and working with centralized media; Avid Interplay and a company called Forbidden has some technology that allows for cloud based editing.
Larry Jordan: How about Avid itself? We haven’t talked about them much. Are they going to survive all the drama they’re going through?
Michael Kammes: That’s a really good question and I think a lot of people are concerned. Obviously, there was a big paradigm shift a version or so ago, when the decision was made to open up the third party IO and that meant that you could use your Kona and your Blackmagic cards and I think that changed the paradigm quite a bit – there was obviously a price drop in the software.
Michael Kammes: So there’s a lot of concern right now, at least from my perspective, although I think Interplay is probably one of the most robust distributed editing systems out there currently.
Larry Jordan: On our live chat, Just Wondering is wondering if there are trends towards faster RAID5 Thunderbolt drives. In fact, are there ever going to be more than Pegasus on a RAID5 Thunderbolt drive?
Michael Kammes: I’m sure there will be. I’m sure you’ve heard the qualification horror stories of various companies trying to get qualified with Thunderbolt. I’m sure there will be more, just there is that kind of waiting in line and getting sanctioned to do it. I think there will come a point in time where there are diminishing returns, where you just don’t need that speed, that you’re not playing back media that requires that kind of throughput, you’re not transferring enough data to make that throughput necessary, so I think it will become less important as we move on.
Larry Jordan: You’re going to say to a group of editors they don’t need the fastest computer and expect to live?
Michael Kammes: I don’t think you need a ten gig ethernet connection when you’re editing two streams of full res.
Larry Jordan: Michael, where can we go on the web to keep track of what your current writing is?
Larry Jordan: That’s michaelkammes.com. Michael, thanks for joining us. Have yourself a wonderful new year.
Michael Kammes: Thanks a lot, Larry.
Larry Jordan: Take care, bye bye.
Larry Jordan: For the past five years, successful film maker Jerome Courshon has assisted hundreds of producers and directors to secure distribution through his classes, speaking engagements and consultations. We’ve talked with him recently about his thoughts on 2013. We’re going to put him on the hot seat for 2014. Welcome back, Jerome, good to hear you.
Jerome Courshon: Thank you. My pleasure to be here. Happy New Year, everyone.
Larry Jordan: And a very Happy New Year to you too and I’m not going to ask how your party was because I want to get right to the exciting stuff, which is what is happening in distribution that’s going to allow us to make any money with our films once we get them done for the next year?
Jerome Courshon: Oh right, well…
Larry Jordan: Quick, tell me how to make money. That’s what I want to know.
Jerome Courshon: Yes, that’s what everyone wants to know – how are you going to make money? The key, I think, has been for the past I’d say year, couple of years, and going forward is to really maximize the markets for your film, and it’s easy to say that but if a film maker is not making an all rights deal, and all rights deals are not right for every film, all rights meaning you’re licensing all markets for your film, say, in North America to one company.
Jerome Courshon: If the deal is right for independent producers, great. If it’s a good advance, if the contract is solid and the company is reputable and you’ll see money after that advance, great, go for it. If it’s not, if it’s not the right deal, then split your rights up so that you’re not giving everything to one company which may just not be on the up and up or may use and abuse you, meaning that maybe they put the film out onto, let’s say, VoD but they’re not really pushing it hard.
Jerome Courshon: This is the big danger for independent producers. You make a deal with a distributor, you’re really happy, you’re thrilled that you’re at the finish line and then you think your job is done, and that’s the mistake too many people make. That’s not where your job is done. That’s where you now have to say, “We’re hopefully working with them,” to be sure that your film is getting out in the markets in the right way and with the right support.
Larry Jordan: In other words, what you’re saying is simply turning it over to a distributor doesn’t absolve your responsibility for marketing your film. You’re still the one that’s got to drive it through everywhere.
Jerome Courshon: Well, hmm, yes and no. I’m going to beat through a lot of shades of grey here, but not 50 Shades of Grey. Essentially, many independent distributors don’t really market, don’t spend a lot of money on marketing. They throw the film into their pipeline and then it just will sit. If it gets on to, let’s say, the VO cable satellite telco systems and you’re hoping people are going to spend three or four or five dollars to watch a viewing of it, but it’s there with thousands of other films, how are people going to find it? How are people going to know it’s there?
Jerome Courshon: A lot of independent distributors don’t do anything about that. They just put it out there and hope that yours is the one of the 20 that they may have put out in the past couple of months that is going to make them money.
Larry Jordan: Well, there are two sides to this whole distribution thing. We’re seeing a complete change in broadcast and cable distribution, we’re seeing a rise in self-marketing, we’re seeing a change in theatrical distribution, not just from film prints to digital but just in terms of who the players are. Is there any reason for optimism anywhere in this industry?
Jerome Courshon: Well, there is and sometimes I feel like I and those clients of mine who’ve taken my class or gotten my program, I feel like we’re the lone people out there holding the torch. It boils down to independent producers really needing to understand the business. They need to educate themselves on the business, and I don’t mean going to school for four years. I’m talking about spending a week and delving into the business of film for marketing and distribution and what’s the truth out there? Because there’s so much BS in LA, there’s so much BS that flies around, not a week goes by that I don’t hear something that’s patently false and it’s damaging if producers and directors buy it.
Jerome Courshon: Take VoD as an example. There are some players out there who say, “Ok, well, we’ll handle your movie and we’ll put it on the cable satellite telco systems, VoD, and it’ll be on the internet too for VoD, but we can’t do any marketing on the cable satellite telco systems. There’s nothing we can do.” Well, that’s bullshit. Sorry, excuse my language. That’s total bull. That’s a distributor or an aggregator who doesn’t want to do the work, who doesn’t want to work with you, the producer.
Larry Jordan: Well, this opens up a question. Are distributors really understanding the new pipelines of distribution or are they just stuck in their old ways and they’re having a hard time moving on?
Jerome Courshon: Yes, you know, I think it comes down to that the distribution business – I hate to say it and I’ll probably get quoted on this somewhere – is kind of like a McDonald’s. If you’re running the distribution company, you need to bring in X amount of new films, new content, every single month and you’ve got to put it out into the pipeline and you’re going to hope that one of those is going to really do well for you, but you’re not going to do anything necessary to really juice it and make it do well. So then it falls upon the independent producer, the savvy ones, to recognize that they need to do some of their own marketing if they really want the sales to be good.
Larry Jordan: What role do you see Kickstarter and Indiegogo playing in the whole process?
Jerome Courshon: Well, you know what would be really great? This would be awesome, and I’m telling film makers this all the time. A lot of them come to me, they’re out of money, right? They’ve spent all their money on their indie film, maybe on cast, they’ve got a couple of names, whatever. Here’s what they need to do.
Jerome Courshon: If they’re out of money, go on Kickstarter or Indiegogo or whatever and raise your marketing money or some marketing money, some amount of money that you can throw at the VoD exposure, maybe the DVD exposure if you’re doing a DVD deal with someone, the online exposure, you know, all the online platforms we have today – the top dozen I call them – have some money to advertise and market, regardless of what your distributor is doing.
Jerome Courshon: The caveat is if it’s Warner Bros. or Paramount that’s handling your movie, yes, you may not need to then do any supplemental marketing. But if it’s one of the hundreds of smaller players out there who don’t have 500 people in their department pushing your film, it’s wise to look at actually spending some money and raise it from one of the online sites where we can do that today.
Larry Jordan: What’s got you most excited about 2014?
Jerome Courshon: Oh, what am I most excited about? It’s a great time to distribute movies and I’m probably the only one who says that, but it really is. There are so many options today. There are so many avenues. There are more paths, more markets to exploit than there ever have been before. Now, I don’t want to sound Pollyanna-ish here. The DVD market is not what it used to be, of course, so if you’ve made an independent film, it’s going to be a little more work to generate revenue on DVD or Blu-ray, but it can still be done.
Jerome Courshon: But I’m an optimist in that film makers who really understand the markets, you can make money with your film or you can at least recoup your budget and make some profit.
Larry Jordan: And, Jerome, for people who want to find out more, where can they go on the web?
Jerome Courshon: They can go to distribution.la and if they click on the second option that says ‘Free stuff’ on the left, they’ll find some articles I wrote for TheWrap recently that everyone listening should read. They’re a short read, check them out.
Larry Jordan: That website is distribution.la and Jerome Courshon is a film distribution expert. Jerome, thanks so much for taking the time to be with us today.
Jerome Courshon: My pleasure. Thank you.
Larry Jordan: Bye bye.
Larry Jordan: Hello, Michele.
Michele Yamazaki: Hey there. Can you hear me?
Larry Jordan: I can hear you but only when I turn the volume up. Michele is the VP of Marketing and a plug-in-ologist for Toolfarm and nobody knows more about plug-ins than Miss Michele Yamazaki. Michele, thanks for joining us today.
Michele Yamazaki: No, thanks for having me on again.
Larry Jordan: Well, you are such a delight to have on, we would be foolish not to have you back.
Michele Yamazaki: Aww!
Larry Jordan: So let’s start with the big question. Last week you were talking about the top selling titles for 2013 and the things that you found that were interesting. This week, what do you see as the top trends for 2014?
Michele Yamazaki: Well, you know, I was a little unsure about this one, so I’m one of the admins on the After Effects portal on Facebook and I asked people there what they thought and I had some pretty interesting answers. From one person – Harry Frank, who you may know, he works for Red Giant software – he was saying GPU focus, so I have a feeling that a lot of plug-in developers are going to be going that way.
Larry Jordan: Well, we’re hearing that a lot from Philip. He was saying that the big thing for 2014 hardware is the fact that we’re starting to see dual GPUs with a GPU devoted to supporting the CPU, which makes blasting bits a whole lot easier.
Michele Yamazaki: Oh yes, with that new Mac too, I can see a lot of plug-ins which will try to take advantage of that.
Larry Jordan: Ok, so we’ve got dual GPUs as one thought that was suggested. Anybody have any other thoughts?
Michele Yamazaki: Well, basically a lot of people were talking about NLE’s that work on tablets a little bit more and plug-ins for VDOT compositing for After Effects and more robust particle and fluid simulation, so a lot of different ways of integrating different plug-ins with different software. People have mentioned Nuke and After Effects or Flame and After Effects, that kind of thing, going back and forth between different host applications, so who knows what will pop up there?
Larry Jordan: Hold it, hold it, hold it. We’ve got a couple of things. One is we can get plug-ins which more accurately represent reality and we’ll talk about that in a second; and the other is tighter integration between different manufacturers’ plug-ins? Or tighter integration between plug-ins from the same manufacturer?
Michele Yamazaki: Well, you could have both. It depends. Boris, they have plug-ins that will port their settings between different host applications, but there are plug-ins out there that will, like there’s a Max to AE plug-in which will take your NLEs or your content, actually I’ve never used it so I don’t really know, from 3DS Max over to After Effects.
Larry Jordan: Oh yes, ok.
Michele Yamazaki: So there are those kind of plug-ins that will port things back and forth between different hosts.
Larry Jordan: Well, are you seeing new technologies on the horizon that have not yet been turned into products that might become productized this next year?
Michele Yamazaki: Well, they have these videos that you see every once in a while on YouTube that come out of different universities that show just unbelievable things that they can do with video processing and sometimes they’re shared by Adobe but I don’t know if this technology is actually owned by anyone at this point. You see just incredible duplicating abilities and rotoscoping abilities that don’t exist in any software with such ease right now and I’m hoping that that type of thing will be integrated into software in the next year, but maybe that’s just being hopeful.
Larry Jordan: Well, there’s always got to be something to look forward to, which I think gets to one of the two big questions I wanted to talk about. There’s a lot of debate as to what’s driving the market. Is it existing users who know the value of plug-ins? Or new users who are looking for new looks? Are we selling into the same people or is the market broadening? Because that has huge financial ramifications for anybody who’s getting into development. What do you think?
Michele Yamazaki: Oh, I think it’s happening both ways.
Larry Jordan: Really?
Michele Yamazaki: Yes, because the existing users, they have to upgrade their machines with the amount of updates that seem to be coming out. It’s just non-stop, so they need to keep up with the current technology and the current versions and there’s bug fixes and new features and all sorts of things, so that’s a tough thing so that’s pushing the market; and then you do have a lot of new users.
Michele Yamazaki: On the After Effects portal that I mentioned earlier, I’m going to guess that 90 percent of the people that we have on there of over 7500 members are not American, so I think that the foreign markets are really pushing things too and I know a lot of the foreign markets in the past have been a lot of bootlegged copies and that kind of thing, and it still may be, but I think that that is a big market and people are buying things in those countries, they’re not just bootlegging any more. They’re burgeoning economies over there.
Larry Jordan: Well, that has an implication for all of us, because if there’s a market and if the market is continuing to grow and, most importantly, if developers make money at it, then we’re going to see a lot of cool effects. But if developers are really caught in the path of we’ve got to upgrade but we can’t make money on the upgrade, then they’re not going to be able to develop anything new because they don’t have any revenue coming in.
Michele Yamazaki: Yes, I think that that’s a tough thing for smaller developers. There are so many different NLEs out there that they’ve been developing for and the new versions coming out all the time plus the new operating systems coming out, it’s really tough to keep things compatible and develop things at the same time and support your existing products and handle sales. It’s a lot to take care of.
Larry Jordan: Well, is the third party developer industry going to consolidate this year? Are there going to be fewer companies? Is it going to remain the same or is it going to fracture into very small one and two person shops because that’s the only way they can stay alive financially?
Michele Yamazaki: I think a lot of the good products will end up being bought up in the end or, who knows, maybe they’ll join forces. I know with Toolfarm, we’ve helped some companies – we’ll handle their distribution so they can focus more on development, that kind of thing. But it’s a tough one. I think it is tough for small developers.
Larry Jordan: Michele, I want to bring in Ned Soltz, the Contributing Editor for Digital Video Magazine. Hello, Ned.
Ned Soltz: Hello Larry, hello Michele and if Michael’s lurking around there too, hi Michael.
Larry Jordan: No, Michael is off vacationing this week for reasons that just baffle me, this whole concept of time off.
Ned Soltz: Why would anybody want to take a vacation?
Larry Jordan: Ned, Michele had a chance to share her thoughts on what’s driving the market from her point of view, whether it’s existing users or whether it’s new users. You’re looking at the market from a different point of view. What do you think about what she said?
Ned Soltz: Well, I would tend to agree that it’s driven on a number of levels. It’s even driven really from the non-US purchaser. But the market itself is broadening and we’re seeing this with the introduction of many more less expensive and accessible technologies, so we’re really bringing in a new generation of users with their GoPros and Blackmagic cameras and with cameras at much lower price points. They’re going to be demanding NLEs, they’re going to be demanding plug-ins and the like but also, because that is a lower price point market, I think they are going to be demanding plug-ins and accessories at a lower price point. So these are not the customers for your Boris or Sapphire, but rather for many of the Red Giants or some of the even smaller developers and less expensive plug-ins, so I think there’s a broadening of the market and it’s going to level at each respective user level, need and economy of scale.
Larry Jordan: Michele, do you agree? I mean, I’m seeing that some of the higher cost plug-ins, even from big companies like Nuke and the rest, have had some price erosions last year. They’re coming down in price to make themselves more accessible. Is that a trend?
Michele Yamazaki: Some of them have but some of them haven’t. Sapphire, for example, hasn’t come down in price at all, but people still buy them for the quality and they’re just great products which have a reputation so people will pay for that too; and they’re solid.
Larry Jordan: So, Ned, what do you think about the third party developer industry and Michele’s comments on whether it’s going to consolidate or stay the same or fragment?
Ned Soltz: Well, I think there has got to be a certain amount of either consolidation or selling of their products, their technology, once they’ve evolved it, or the tremendous use, for example, of a Toolfarm who’s able then to take over the marketing of these products, because it’s very difficult to develop a product and be a marketing person all at the same time. So I think there definitely is room for the smaller developer, because that’s going to be the entry level path to a lot of new users who are looking to get started and not really possessing significant resources to buy the Borises and the Sapphires and the like. But I think there has got to be a certain amount of consolidation because it just can’t sustain itself.
Larry Jordan: Michele, for people who want to keep track of all the wonderful marketing the Toolfarm is doing, where can they go on the web?
Michele Yamazaki: www.toolfarm.com.
Larry Jordan: And that’s all one word, toolfarm.com and Michele Yamazaki is the VP of Marketing. Michele, thanks for joining us today.
Michele Yamazaki: Thanks so much. Happy New Year.
Larry Jordan: And same to you. So, Ned, as we look at it, there’s more than just the world of plug-ins and effects to work with and Philip has given us his take on the fact that dual GPUs is actually a big thing. What are some of the trends you’re watching for 2014?
Ned Soltz: I’m definitely watching the dual GPUs and I’m watching the new Mac Pro with tremendous interest because it’s important to see what applications, other than Final Cut 10, are really going to be able to take full advantage of that dual GPU.
Ned Soltz: We already have seen the advantage of multiple GPU processing, for example with Da Vinci Resolve. Will that be able to be leveraged then with the new Mac Pro? And this becomes more and more essential as users become more sophisticated, as the technology becomes more accessible and I think over this coming year we’ll see much more of a maturation and filling in of 4K. I don’t expect to see anything earth shattering particularly, but I do tend to see more 4K cameras coming on the market, more maturation of the product, more maturation in logarithmic or RAW areas and therefore users needing that kind of power to be able to process and store the data that’s going to be generated by RAW and logarithmic workflows.
Larry Jordan: I was reading earlier today that YouTube envisions 2014 to be the year of high resolution, 4K images.
Ned Soltz: Yes.
Larry Jordan: Is this like the hype of three years ago, when we were talking about 3D as the next big thing?
Ned Soltz: I don’t believe so. I really don’t.
Larry Jordan: Why not?
Ned Soltz: I really don’t believe so, simply because 4K – and I alluded to this last week when we spoke – 4K is going to be much more watchable than 3D is going to be. It’s going to be much more accessible. But, you see, 3D was kind of faddish, as it remains in the theater right now. It’s a specialty sort of niche. People, I think, are looking for greater clarity of picture, people are looking for all kinds of ways of alternative delivery and certainly 4K is going to be an IP delivery. Next week’s CES show is really going to be very telling, because it will be interesting to see how the prices of consumer 4K televisions are going to look for the coming year and that may drive a great deal of 4K adoption on the consumer level which will then generate a valid option on the production, editing and then delivery level.
Larry Jordan: We’ve got eight bajillion cameras out there and now we’re going to be adding nine bajillion to shoot 4K. Do we have too many choices in cameras? Is the market oversaturated and changing too quickly?
Ned Soltz: The market is absolutely oversaturated. There are too many cameras, there is too much product confusion. People are very suspicious of really making major investments in cameras right now. I was talking about this with someone the other day.
Ned Soltz: I very much personally want to make an investment in a larger 4K camera, but I’m looking at the fact that I’ve really then got to be able to recoup that investment in under a year to then be able to make money on it in the next year and sell it the year after that, when a new technology comes along. This is not the age of your beta cam, where you put a tremendous investment in relative dollars into that beta cam and you knew that technology, that camera was good for ten years or 15 years and you changed the heads and you kept maintaining it and the technology didn’t change.
Larry Jordan: Or you could buy a new lens every six years.
Ned Soltz: That’s right, yes, but that’s about it. Your basic technology remained the same. Right now, the technology changes, people don’t know what to invest in, the competition for the owner/operator is a very fierce one, so I do think there are too many cameras. As an example, just yesterday Canon reduced the price of the C100 and the C500.
Larry Jordan: Hmm. Is the bloom off the DSLR rose, thinking of Canon?
Ned Soltz: Well, I was at a wedding New Year’s Eve and the wedding videographer was shooting a 5D Mk III. I don’t think the bloom is off of it at all in certain marketplaces and I struck up a conversation with the guy, he said this was the 161st wedding that he’d shot in 2013 with this 5D Mk III, so the bloom isn’t off of them at all.
Ned Soltz: I think it’s all what the particular user wants to use and what a client will accept. The bloom’s off of it for me personally, but I never really jumped that hard on the DSLR bandwagon.
Larry Jordan: We’ve got about a minute left. What new technology trends are you watching?
Ned Soltz: I’m watching 4K delivery. We’ve got plenty of 4K acquisition right now. How is that H.265 delivery medium going to be integrated then into delivery pipelines and channels for the coming year? That’s the big thing to watch.
Larry Jordan: Ok, anything else?
Ned Soltz: H.265, that’s the word to me, and dual processors, dual GPUs. Dual GPUs, H.265, that’s the story of 2014.
Larry Jordan: Mike and Philip and I were talking about the fact that we’re drowning in digital data. In about 30 seconds, how are we ever going to manage this if asset management still becomes difficult to use?
Ned Soltz: We’re going to need to see less expensive back-up types and archival types of options. LTO remains the best option, it’s still too expensive. If we can see some form of less expensive archival medium arise, then I think that that will help the data drumming as well as archival and cataloguing software.
Larry Jordan: And, Ned, where can people go on the web to read what you’re thinking?
Larry Jordan: And Ned Soltz is the Contributing Editor for Digital Video Magazine. Ned, thanks for joining us today.
Ned Soltz: Thank you, Larry. Happy New Year to all.
Larry Jordan: And you too. Bye bye.
Larry Jordan: Jonathan Handel is an entertainment and technology attorney of Counsel at Troy Gould in Los Angeles. He’s also the Contributing Editor on entertainment labor issues for the Hollywood Reporter, he’s got a blog at jhandel.com and, as far as we can tell here at the office, he never sleeps. Hello, Jonathan.
Jonathan Handel: Hello. Happy New Year.
Larry Jordan: And a Happy New Year to you. So let’s switch gears. We’ve been talking about hardware and high tech and plug-ins and software, but there are people behind all of this and nobody watches the labor market like you do. There have been a lot of changes in the labor arena with the guilds in 2013. What does that portend for 2014?
Jonathan Handel: Well, there have been a lot of changes. It’s really sort of human-ware as opposed to hardware. We’re in the middle of the contract negotiating cycle for the above aligned unions. The DGA did their deal a few weeks ago and it’s out for ratification by the members. Those ballots will be back next week and it’s expected to pass overwhelmingly. We’ll then see the other unions – the Writers’ Guild and then the Screenactors’ Guild – negotiate their deals, presumably largely along the same lines.
Jonathan Handel: What we see in the DGA deal is really two things. One is reflection of a somewhat improved economy – the wage rates increased at a rate that’s higher than they did on the last go round, the purse strings have loosened a bit. Then the other thing is accommodation to some additional forms of new media, programming for streaming video on demand, like Netflix, House of Cards, some increase in the residual rates for programming on Hulu, so there’s actually a lot in the DGA deal and it’s interesting that it happened sort of under the radar, without controversy.
Larry Jordan: Well, does 2014 mostly revolve around labor negotiations? Or are there larger trends that are going to impact labor and employment?
Jonathan Handel: Well, a little bit of both. The unions will busy with labor negotiations through the middle of the year, which is when the new contracts will take effect, and SAG-AFTRA is also busy with trying to attempt some kind of changes for the pension and particularly the health plans, because you’ve still got two separate plans for SAG and for AFTRA.
Jonathan Handel: But the larger trends are interesting. We see sort of in the outside world, as it were, some pressure to increase the minimum wage. We see a very progressive mayor, Bill de Blasio, elected to New York on a sort of unabashedly populous platform, so one of the interesting questions is going to be to what extent do these outside developments affect Hollywood labor? And we don’t know yet.
Larry Jordan: Well, it also seems that it’s more than just Hollywood labor, because there’s an increasing growth of international production. It seems we’re in a worldwide competition for projects. What’s the impact of that on the labor market?
Jonathan Handel: Well, it’s a tough one. You’re absolutely right and it plays out both in production and in post production as well – the visual effects artists have been very adamant about trying to reduce the effects of runaway production – but both within the US and internationally, there is a huge effect, some would say a huge distorting effect, as a result of tax incentives.
Jonathan Handel: An astonishing figure from the LA Times – in the last decade, tax incentives within the United States alone increased by a factor of almost a thousand fold from $2 million in 2002 to $1.5 billion in 2012. That’s drawn a lot of work away from California, it’s taken the work to New York, internationally to London, domestically again towards Louisiana, earlier in the decade to Michigan, all over the map. But the constant has been outside of California, it’s been runaway and even with some improvements in the California tax incentive, it’s very difficult to fight that.
Larry Jordan: On the other hand, if you’re living outside of California, it would be a good thing because it gives you a chance to work on projects you wouldn’t be able to work on any other way.
Jonathan Handel: Well, that’s right, which has hamstrung the unions a bit in their response on this because most of the unions are national unions and so they can’t really be going and campaigning against the New York tax incentive when they’ve got New York members. It has been a boon for New York in particular, but also for London, which of course doesn’t help within the US.
Larry Jordan: What does the pressure look like for salaries and fees this year? Is the money that we make still under negative pressure, which keeps salaries down? Or are we starting to balance the labor pool with available jobs?
Jonathan Handel: Well, there still is a lot of pressure but, as I say, on the union front at least, the wage increases were stronger this year than they were three years ago, on the last go round, so these are not dramatic increases we’re talking about, but they are increases in the minimums. At the high end of the wage scale, when it comes to movie stars and so forth, that’s a different story and it’s affected as much by the difficulty that studios have in consistently producing movies that people want to see. We’re very much stuck in a world of sequels and tent poles and, of course, even those don’t always work out.
Larry Jordan: I want to bring in Jessica Sitomer. She’s the President of The Greenlight Coach and get her perspective, because she helps find people work. Hello Jessica.
Jessica Sitomer: Hello there.
Larry Jordan: And you are on with Jonathan. What do you think about Jonathan’s thoughts on salaries being pushed down or we’re getting a balance between labor and projects?
Jessica Sitomer: Well, I guess I’m hearing the positive, because I heard him say that the unions are getting salaries up, so that’s good; and he’s absolutely right as far as the big stars and the top people in the above and below the line fields are always going to be getting above scale, they’re always going to be getting the higher rates.
Jessica Sitomer: But he was also talking about how there are different formats for people to be getting work now. We talked last week about what happened last year with people working on YouTube and webisodes and Netflix and there are a lot of different areas for people to be making money, so it’s going to be about people really standing up for what they’re worth because the younger people who are coming in who don’t have a lot of responsibilities can work for nothing, you know, and very little and the older people who are trying to support a family and have a house mortgage to pay, they’re really going to have stand their ground on what they’re worth and they’re going to be competing with those people.
Larry Jordan: Well, Jessica, one of the things that Jonathan mentioned is the incredible impact that tax incentives have had in driving productions away from LA and perhaps New York. You’re based in Florida. Do you view tax incentives the same way Jonathan does?
Jessica Sitomer: Oh, they’re having all kinds of legislative stuff going on down here now, trying to get incentives going. The bottom line, and the way I’ve always seen it, is tax incentives work when the talent is there and the government understands what the tax incentives are about. If only the people in the entertainment industry understand, then that’s why you saw some of it happening in Michigan earlier on and then it wasn’t and Detroit happened and then it didn’t happen and I really think that part of the issue is for the state to understand why they’re offering these incentives and what it can bring.
Jessica Sitomer: But, let’s face it, California has ideal weather so I really don’t think it’s ever going to fully go away from there. It’s really got the best weather. I mean, here in Florida it’s always raining, I don’t know how they can shoot a lot.
Larry Jordan: Jonathan, what other labor trends are you keeping your eye on aside from negotiations and aside from the guilds? What sort of macro labor stuff are you watching for this year?
Jonathan Handel: Well, really the ground that we covered. I’m trying to keep my eye on the larger economy and the effects that technology is having and going to continue to have on the labor market. I think there’s a lot of uncertainty and if you look back 12 months and look forward 12 months and ask where are the hot programs going to be, what are people going to be watching, there are a lot of question marks and all of that has an effect on the labor market.
Larry Jordan: So basically we don’t know.
Jonathan Handel: Basically, we don’t know. That’s a fair answer.
Larry Jordan: And Jonathan, for people that do want to know at least some more than what they do, where can they go on the web to read your thoughts?
Jonathan Handel: Well, one great place would be thrlabor.com, thehollywoodreporterlabor.com.
Larry Jordan: And how about your blog?
Jonathan Handel: And my blog at jhandel.com.
Larry Jordan: That’s jhandel.com. Jonathan, thanks for joining us today.
Jonathan Handel: Thank you so much.
Larry Jordan: Jessica, so is there any hope at all for people who want to get work and keep work in this industry? Give us a positive way to end this program before we start running in front of large moving production trucks.
Jessica Sitomer: Ok, well I was thinking about the 2014 call that we have every year, and so I came up with three trends that are helping you to find work.
Larry Jordan: Oh yes!
Jessica Sitomer: The three trends that I see coming.
Larry Jordan: Ok. Hang on, I’m going to take notes. Three trends. Go for it.
Jessica Sitomer: Ready? First one, social media. I’m always talking about Facebook and Twitter, but now the trends are showing Instagram as a quickly growing relevant marketing tool. Again, it’s free and the nice thing is it can automatically post to Facebook and Twitter, so you could hit all three at once.
Jessica Sitomer: Now, I just created my social media calendar for the year today and it starts Monday, so if you want to see an example, you could find me on Twitter and Instagram as Greenlight Coach and Facebook as The Greenlight Coach.
Larry Jordan: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You created your social media calendar for the year?
Jessica Sitomer: Yes.
Larry Jordan: Jessica, I can’t plan this weekend. What do you mean, creating it for the year? Why plan so far ahead?
Jessica Sitomer: Because this way I know exactly what I’m going to be posting. One of the things that stops people from using social media is that they don’t know what they’re going to write about. They’re making it this huge project instead of breaking it down month by month, day by day. So I’m deciding how many times I want to post either per day or per week or per month, per site, because I have a bunch of sites, and then I figure out which one I post to first and then that one posts to the other ones and then I fill in what each post is going to be about; and then I have my calendar broken down by month, so I have my year calendar done but then I have the one month of January, I have all of my posts already to go for January.
Larry Jordan: All right.
Jessica Sitomer: Ready for the second trend? Are you overwhelmed with that?
Larry Jordan: You know, I’m depressed. I don’t want to think about your classes. You’ll have your shoes lined up in alphabetical order. Ok, go ahead, second trend.
Jessica Sitomer: Second trend which I am excited about because it directly impacts me is that I’m seeing a lot more career coaches in our industry popping up. Now, many specialize towards actors or writers, whereas I work with above and below the line, but the reason why they’re popping up is the same reason why I got into this field 18 years ago – they had a coach like me or discovered tools that worked for them and, because of their success, they want to teach others what to do.
Jessica Sitomer: So if you don’t want to fall behind on the business side while your competition is learning all these tools and strategies to succeed, I suggest you start paying attention to career coaching, because business is definitely being talked about a lot more than it ever was before. People are no longer just sitting on their couch and waiting for their phone to ring. They are being proactive.
Larry Jordan: And trend number three?
Jessica Sitomer: Making yourself contagious, and I mean that in the best way because I know you probably have a joke for it. But people are really starting to catch on that being interesting, funny or memorable are leading to their getting jobs and I have my Greenlight mentor release this month focusing on their conversation. What are they talking about? What do they repeat and why do they repeat certain stories or facts that they hear? What do they see or read that they bring up in conversation? By analyzing what’s interesting, funny or memorable, you can become contagious through your conversations this year, so focus on that.
Larry Jordan: Ok, summarize, three bullet points. They are?
Jessica Sitomer: The three bullet points are social media, career coaching and making yourself contagious.
Larry Jordan: Ok, now what one lesson did we learn in 2013 that we need to carry with us into 2014?
Jessica Sitomer: Well, that ties in with what we talked about with Jonathan, and that is if you want to work, go where the work is. But before you go, lay down the foundation of relationships for yourself, because one of the reasons why you go to these tax incentive states is because they don’t have the people who have the talent to do what they do. So if you want to go someplace where the work is and you’ve got the talent, you’re going to be a big fish in a small pond, so go where the work is. I mean, that’s what people were doing last year and that’s why a lot more people were working.
Larry Jordan: So what new skill do we need to learn in 2014 that we haven’t needed to learn before?
Jessica Sitomer: That would go back to trend number one and that is Instagram. So many of my clients have said that they used to think Facebook was just for their kids, and now it’s become a job generating resource for them. Well, I predict it will be the same for Instagram. Not just for your kids, it’s a visual marketing tool that is being seen in TV commercials, so if the big brands are using it, you should be too. So find out about it, because it’s a very easy social media system to use.
Larry Jordan: So do you think the job landscape’s getting more positive? Are you optimistic?
Jessica Sitomer: Oh, I’m always optimistic.
Larry Jordan: I know that. Why?
Jessica Sitomer: Because what it comes down to is if you’re willing to put in the work, not just have your talent, but if you’re willing to put in the work, the cream always rises to the top and, like I said, even though the trend is going toward career coaching, it hasn’t caught on fire yet, you know? So therefore you still have a chance to learn these business tools and that will get people working. I can’t watch a TV show or a movie without seeing somebody I’ve worked with in the credits.
Larry Jordan: Jessica, where can people go on the web to keep track of all your enthusiasm?
Jessica Sitomer: Thegreenlightcoach.com.
Larry Jordan: And the President of The Greenlight Coach is Jessica Sitomer. That’s thegreenlightcoach.com, all one word, and Jessica thanks for joining us today.
Jessica Sitomer: My pleasure. Happy New Year.
Larry Jordan: And you too. Bye bye.
Jessica Sitomer: Bye.
Larry Jordan: It’s been a heck of a show. Every time I turn around, we’ve got more and more cool stuff to talk about. A great look back last week at 2013 and a wonderful look forward at 2014. Phew, we’ve got all kinds of stuff happening and the change is constant and there’s no better place to look than right here on the Digital Production Buzz. We’re going to be covering a lot of it with these folks and brand new folks over the coming weeks and coming months and we always encourage you to attend. We want to make sure that you participate in the live chat and join us during the show and ask questions and we’re happy to get them answered for you.
Larry Jordan: Also, join us on our live Twitter and Facebook work that’s going on. There’s a huge conversation out there and we can all benefit by sharing ideas, one with the other.
Larry Jordan: I want to thank our guests for this week. We started with Philip Hodgetts, the President of Intelligent Assistance, who had an overview of the major technology trends he expects to see and it was interesting that Philip’s thoughts on dual GPUs sort of resonated throughout the rest of the show; Michael Kammes, the Director of Technology and Marketing for Key Code Media on upcoming post production technology, software and gear; film distribution expert Jerome Courshon on distribution trends and what we can do to make money on our projects; Michele Yamazaki, the Director of Marketing for Toolfarm and a certified plug-in-ologist looking at technology plug-ins, utilities and effects and the special effects to watch in the coming year; Ned Soltz, Contributing Editor for Digital Video Magazine with his predictions on hardware trends in production; Jonathan Handel, the entertainment labor reporter for the Hollywood Reporter sharing his thoughts on what will be driving labor and jobs in the coming year; and thinking of jobs, it’s perfect for us to wrap up with Jessica Sitomer, the President of The Greenlight Coach on employment trends for 2014.
Larry Jordan: There’s a lot of stuff happening on The Buzz. Be sure to check out the website at digitalproductionbuzz.com, talk with us on Twitter, @dpbuzz, and Facebook. Music on The Buzz is provided by SmartSound. Our producer is Cirina Catania; our engineer, Adrian Price. On behalf of Mike Horton, Happy New Year everybody. My name’s Larry Jordan and thanks for listening to The Buzz.
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